If they play fair, we could live together, we could all realize that we all belong here and that we can prosper together, that we could live together, that we can’t live on our own.
DIVNA JANKOVA: My name is Divna Jankova, I’m an interviewer from Peace Action from Prilep, for the program “Facing the past” and I had great interest in meeting you again, since I’ve known you since you were a kid, I was a counselor at your school. Still, you should give me your name, profession, address and so on so that we could begin. Here’s the thing about the questions. If there’s any question you don’t like or seems inappropriate to you, we could change it or just skip it. So, my first question is, I want you to tell me something about yourself and about the other ethnic communities, because you lived in a multiethnic area.
ALEKSANDRA MLADENOVSKA: My name is Aleksandra Mladenovska. I study at the faculty of law in Stip and I live in Kumanovo.
DJ: Aleksandra, where did you live before 2001?
AM: Well, before 2001 I lived and I still do in an area called Bedinje, which is a multiethnic area.
DJ: How was life before 2001?
AM: There was coexistence before 2001. We lived together with the Albanian population. They were our neighbors, we socialized with them. We were greeting each other on the street, so there was good coexistence.
DJ: There was good communication. What was your opinion about people from different ethnic communities?
AM: Well, they’re just like people from my community. They’re people like anybody else and I don’t see much of a difference or any obstacles between them and us.
DJ: Back then you didn’t?
AM: I still don’t.
DJ: Right. Were there any conflicts, because there were Albanian students in your school as well?
AM: Yes.
DJ: Were there any conflicts between you and the children from different ethnicity?
AM: Conflicts! The conflicts were…
DJ: Do you think you need a break?
AM: Sure.
(Break)
DJ: Let’s go on now. So talk to me about the conflicts with the children from different ethnic groups, taken in mind that you went to school together.
AM: Right. I personally never had any conflicts because I was always trying to avoid those kids. It was a group of Albanian kids that would gather after classes, ambush our boys, beat them, take their money. That’s the kind of conflicts we had. I always tried to avoid them because I knew what could happen, you know, many kids would go home with a broken arm, Macedonian kids, or some other injuries, so it was smartest for me to avoid those situations.
DJ: Would you tag that type of conflicts as a discriminating act of one ethnic group against another one, or would you just say that they were childish fights without any such purpose, without discrimination?
AM: Back then I would have said that it was all a childish thing. But today, from this point of view, I could confirm that those incidents were acts of discrimination.
DJ: What does that mean to you? Why do you think it’s discrimination?
AM: Well, it seemed as though they wanted to – I mean, once I had the opportunity to witness one such fight and I could hear them talk: “you’re not supposed to be here, your place is somewhere else.” That’s why I think so. They simply didn’t want us any near them, in their school, their neighborhoods, any place near them.
DJ: Did it seem to you that one of the ethnic groups were wealthier that the others?
AM: Yes, we could see back then that they were generally wealthier than us.
DJ: Where do you think their wealth was coming from?
AM: Well, they never missed a chance to show that in every possible way. They would simply ignore you and not talk to you because you have no money. Because you don’t have that kind of clothes or that type of toys. They would come out on the street with some toys we couldn’t afford, and that’s how we could feel that.
DJ: Were their parents working abroad? Where did they get that kind of income?
AM: Well, those are all very big families, and some of the members sure work abroad and they send money back to the family and they share it equally among the members. That’s where they get it.
DJ: About education. I know you studied in your mother tongue, so there was no injustice there. Now let’s get back to 2001. How did you go through it, what happened to you that year? What is the first thing you can think of about 2001?
AM: It was bad, it was definitely very bad in 2001, war, fire everywhere. That whole year was the worst one in my entire life, both for my country and for me and my family.
DJ: Let’s go with you and your family first. What memory would you share from that year?
AM: I wish it was but one memory.
DJ: Well, talk to me about it. All the bad stuff or even some good ones. Anything about 2001 that you would like to share with me.
AM: 2001. The first thing I can think of is the moment I realized that the war was on. That was – because my dad works at the police, the moment when he got a mysterious call after which he put on his uniform, then his colleagues came for him, they armed him and took him away. That’s the hardest thing, because for about five days I had no idea where my father was.
DJ: For five whole days you didn’t know?
AM: I didn’t know.
DJ: You didn’t keep in touch?
AM: We didn’t.
DJ: How did that make you feel?
AM: Very bad, very bad. From today’s point of view, I’m thinking maybe it would have been easier for me if I knew whether he was alive or dead.
DJ: Your eyes are wet?
AM: Yes.
DJ: Are you going through the same sadness all over again?
AM: Yes.
DJ: And you got no news for whole five days. You stayed at home, your brother, your mom and yourself.
AM: We stayed at home, at our house, because dad said before he left – I’ll remember those words until I die, he said: “It’s not so bad, just stay at home.” Because mom, since she’s from Serbia, wanted to us to go there. He said: “It’s not that bad, stay at home” and I it seemed curious to me. Also, after those five days, which means on the sixth day, when I finally talked to my father, there was a shootout in front of our house just before he called me. We were living in darkness, we tried not to turn the lights on at night, the shootings were so loud that it seemed like they were in the room. Mom was out of her mind, she didn’t know what to do with us. She went to the door to see what was going on and my brother and I…
DJ: Your brother is younger than you?
AM: Yes, in 2001 he was in the 4th grade, 3th or 4th grade, I’m two years older than him. Ever since we were kids, we’ve been hiding under the table when we were scared. I know he took my hand and said: “I’m scared, let’s hide under the table”. So we hid and the shootout was very intense, we didn’t know where it was coming from, but we knew it was somewhere close. I had the feeling that – I’m not saying it was rational, but those were the only thoughts in my mind, that someone could come in any moment and that something bad was going to happen to us. That’s the sort of things I was thinking. The shootout lasted about an hour and suddenly all went dark. As if a storm had passed and now everything was peaceful. An hour later the phone rang and I heard my father’s voice. I told him that it’s – that there’s shooting here, I asked him a hundred questions and he just said: “it’s okay, don’t worry, daddy’s looking after you.” It felt as if he was saying goodbye. He didn’t answer any of my questions about where he was, how he was, I just felt as if he was saying: “OK, baby, we’ll talk some other time, or maybe never again”.
DJ: How did you feel? Can you find words to explain it?
AM: First, enormous pain. Like, we’re a family, we’re a happy family and the first thing that came to my mind is why should anyone have the right to break in and destroy my family.
DJ: Since you’re crying, and I don’t have anything for you to wipe, can we go on or should we take a break?
AM: It’s okay, we can go on… So that’s what I was thinking, nobody has the right to break in and torn my family apart. I was scared for my mom and my brother, I was trying to – mom was obsessing about dad and about how to protect us, what to do. I was trying to protect them somehow, to comfort them.
DJ: What did you do, how did you protect them?
AM: I was trying to protect them by saying – I have big faith in people, even in those who had declared a war on us. I believe in people and I believe in humanity. I was saying to mom and my brother that everything would be over soon and that dad would come home alive and well and that it was all just a – I would say that to my brother, because he used to have some horrible nightmares, that it was all just a dream and that he would wake up really soon, that the nightmare was about to end and we would all be together again. Before the shootings, I mean, before the war started, he wished for a football which my parents couldn’t afford to buy during the war. So I was saying to him that the war would soon be over and that he was going to get that ball and play with his friends and that everything was going to be alright. I simply wouldn’t let them turn on the TV because I knew what we were going to see on the program. I knew that we weren’t going to hear of any nice things like before. I didn’t want them to stress out even more and…
DJ: You established some sort of new order at home?
AM: Yes, in a way.
DJ: What changed about living in your neighborhood?
AM: A lot. My neighborhood today is not what it used to be. Now they live on the other side, we’re like two different worlds. They live on the other side and we can’t pass through there. We live on this side, so we no longer have the same relations, no longer greetings in the street, it’s like we don’t know each other anymore. Those I know from before, it’s like they’re different people now. No “good afternoon”, no “good morning”, which is fine, I mean, if that’s the price for peace, we don’t need to have any relations. The neighborhood has changed too. Now we live in two different circles. We no longer mix, we’re completely different now. We can even say that there neighbors hate them now, I mean, the Macedonians feel hatred for them. I’ve seen more than once some Albanian passing by in his car and some neighbor cursing after him. And that’s not the case only in my neighborhood, it was the same at my mother’s workplace, she’s a nurse and she had an Albanian colleague. The first day she went back to work she came home and said: “my colleagues are not talking to me”. I was saying: “why wouldn’t they, they are your friends”, because they’ve helped each other and all that. She said: “I simply don’t know anything anymore”.
DJ: It was like that during the war and it’s still the same?
AM: Yes, yes. Now there’s one room for the Albanians, and another one for the Macedonians, that’s how they work, at least where mom works.
DJ: And where were your neighbors, the Albanians during the war? Were they here or had they fled?
AM: To tell you the truth, I don’t know, because we all know what kind of houses they live in. You can’t even see their houses, rounded with big walls. Their gates were always closed. From what I could see, I got the impression that they had been preparing for all that for a while and now they’re hidden inside. Like, they had bought bread, oil and now they were tucked inside. It was as though we were the only once forced to leave our homes to buy some bread. I never met them outside. In the morning, in the evening, they were never there. Whether they had fled or not, I don’t know, but it hurts me very much that I have to say this, it hurt me what I heard from an Albanian neighbor one day during the war. This day I went out for bread and she was brooming the yard and when she saw me, she came out and said: “If you hadn’t started the war, my brother would not have been taken away.”
DJ: What does that mean, who took her brother away?
AM: I stopped and asked her: “Where is your brother”, and she said: “My brother is in our army”. That’s how she put it.
DJ: That was during the war?
AM: Yes, during the war. I said: “My father is also taken away, only with the other side”, and she said: “But my brother didn’t want to go, they took him.” I couldn’t get it.
DJ: You never left your house, right? You didn’t move someplace else like some of these neighbors from the station did. You stayed in Bedinje for the whole time?
AM: We stayed there no matter what because that’s where dad could come back any time. Because we couldn’t reach him and at one moment mom suggested we should go to her family in Serbia, but it crossed my mind that what would happen if dad comes back and sees the house empty in the middle of a war. He wouldn’t know where we’d gone. So, if it was meant to be, let it be, but that’s where we stayed, in our home, to wait for dad.
DJ: You made that decision together?
AM: Yes.
DJ: You were afraid for your family, weren’t you?
AM: Very afraid.
DJ: Who were you most afraid of?
AM: Who were I most… Well, to put it simple, from those who were shooting. I was afraid from my neighbors, from the Albanians, because I couldn’t see what they were doing. I didn’t know what could happen and whether they would come out through those giant gates they have, I used to call them “the gates of evil”. Whether they would come out of those giant gates and attack as, because…
DJ: You were a child, you had fantasies.
AM: Yes, I did.
DJ: You and your brother were very young and you had your childish fantasies. Did you ever talk about your fears?
AM: No, I never talked to him about it, because I thought it was going to make it harder. I didn’t want him to bear that burden, because he was younger than me and I didn’t want him to know that it was really a war. I wanted him to think that the shooting was going to pass. That it was a nightmare. I wanted him to help himself through those moments with fantasy. My mom, yeah, we talked about that a lot. But with her it was mostly about consoling her about dad, about…
DJ: Were you very afraid for your dad?
AM: Yes, I was worried about him and to tell you the truth, I had every right to be worried, because we sat down when he got back and we talked about all that he’d been trough and that he almost lost his life more than once. Just really scary.
DJ: Wat was the hardest thing for you?
AM: The hardest thing… it was then. As I said, when dad left, when we couldn’t reach him for five days. The hardest thing was the nights when mom was crying…
DJ: Did you have any contacts with armed people? Did you see any armed forces, except for your father, any people from the other side?
AM: Yes, that night when there was a shootout in front of our house. I went to the hall to see my mom and on the way back I hid by the window and saw them. It was three of them, they were under the bulb in our front yard, three male figures.
DJ: Armed?
AM: Yes, armed, I have never seen people with more weapons. So many weapons on them, I don’t know. They were wearing uniforms, red and black I think, they had helmets and a lot of arms on them.
DJ: How did that make you feel? Did you tell anybody?
AM: No, there was no one to tell. If I had told my mother, she would have freaked out even more. If I had told my brother, he would have started to scream. I wanted it to be silent, and I had never been more scared in my life. The thoughts going through my heaDJ: “Please God, don’t let them come in, please, don’t let them come in”. That was my only thought and my arms and legs were shaking and I felt as though they were standing behind me. At one moment I even stopped breathing, just so that they wouldn’t hear me and come in after the sound, just so that they wouldn’t find my mom, my brother and me.
DJ: What do you think they were doing there? Why were they in your front yard, what did you think then?
AM: First I thought, when I saw the three male silhouettes, I thought they might have come for my dad. Like, some colleagues of his may have come to pick him up, some other friends. Then when I saw the uniforms, I realized that it was people from the other side. Then the first thing that popped into my head was that maybe they knew that, you know… My father is a policeman, after all. So that’s what I thought, why were they right in front of our house, did they know that my dad is a policemen? Then I thought… The other houses around us were, in a way, poorer. Our house was well positioned and sort of wealthier, if I may say. So I thought maybe they’re here for money. All kinds of things went through my head and I was horrified from the idea that they had started raiding our houses.
DJ: What is the thing you disagree with most about with them, the Albanians?
AM: Generally speaking, I disagree with them about… They had our respect and our understanding. Now, I’m talking in general, because I know it, I study that now, so I’m well informed. They were asking for something that wasn’t theirs. They were asking for our country that isn’t theirs. They were looking for something that’s impossible to get here. If they were asking for coexistence, they would have gotten it. If they were asking for us to accept them as ours, which we did, at least I did, they would have gotten that too. The rest is… a surplus in this country.
DJ: That’s how you understood, that they were trying to take over the territory? Our territory, if I understood you well, is that what you thought?
AM: In a way, yes.
DJ: That’s what you thought?
AM: Yes.
DJ: And what do you disagree about with our own people?
AM: Our people? Well, maybe in a way I don’t think it was good that they allowed for 2001 to happen, for the war to come. Now… I don’t know, our people were defending what was theirs. What was their own. If someone comes and tells you “give me your house”, you sure will fight for it, because it’s yours. No one has the right to take it away from you. That’s all.
DJ: Did anyone from the Albanian side ever helped you with anything?
AM: No.
DJ: How did your life change after 2001, what are the consequences on you?
AM: Yes, well, after the war and after what my dad went through, my life sure changed, and the consequences? Many sleepless nights. I sort of got used to all the shooting. Each night you go the bed and you hear the same noise, but I… got used to it.
DJ: You couldn’t sleep when it was quiet?
AM: I couldn’t sleep, or I would fall asleep and I would see those three shadows in my dreams. I felt them close to me, as if they were standing next to me. I thought it would all end when the war is over, but no, I could feel them close to me, I had many sleepless nights, and so did my father. After the war he had to… they sent him in the mountains, so to speak. To get some rest for ten days, because he went through hell back there. It was horrible for us too, but for him it was the most.
DJ: Could you notice that on your father?
AM: I could notice a gaze that I couldn’t recognize. A gaze… filled with hatred.
DJ: And his behavior?
AM: His behavior had changed too. That dear, sweet parent who always took care of everyone and never made any differences between people, suddenly started doing it. He became impatient with us as well.
DJ: Did he become cruel or…?
AM: You could say so. You can say he became impatient, cruel, stressed, yelling. He couldn’t stand any noise, he needed silence. Many nights I caught him cry, it was the first time to see my father cry.
DJ: How did that make you feel?
AM: Bad, I mean… I felt bad, because I was trying to come close to him, hug him, help him, and he was pushing me away. Those moments when he cries I feel as though he sees an enemy in me, like those he fought against.
DJ: What made you think he was seeing an enemy in you?
AM: The thing that each time I would go near him to give him a hug, he would say: “Get away from me”. He had – the way he looked at me was painful for me.
DJ: Was he cold?
AM: Cold and even full of hatred.
DJ: Yes, you said that a while ago. Was he the same with your brother?
AM: Yes.
DJ: And your mother too?
AM: He was like that with all of us.
DJ: Did he went to the mountains by his own will?
AM: Yes, he went there to calm his mind, to relax. To figure things out.
DJ: Did it work?
AM: It did, because I joined him, I was there because – I hate injustice. And I felt a lot of that in my surroundings, so I needed to go away too. And so we went there, talked. He told me about his experience there. We simply emptied ourselves. What I’ve been keeping to myself during the war, what he’s been keeping to himself while he was fighting on the battle fields, we spoke it out loud and we decided that it was about time to move on and that we had to live with that injustice even after the war.
DJ: Did you change as a person after 2001?
AM: I did, I did. In a way, I turned out stronger. That’s one. Two, I generally changed. The way I looked at the world, at other people, it all changed.
DJ: What is your impression about 2001, to ask you again, why do you think it happened?
AM: Why it happened… I don’t know… See the Albanian people… Like they were trying to make a point that there’s no room for both us and them here. That’s the kind of picture I got in my head. Like there’s no room for all, like they want something we can’t give them.
DJ: Aleksandra, let’s go back to your family. Your family changed a lot since 2001. What happened further on with your father, your mother, with you? Your brother, unfortunately…
AM: Unfortunately, he passed away seven years ago. It’s a good thing my other brother didn’t have to go through the war…
DJ: He was born after the war. Do you think the war had any influence on your brother’s death?
AM: I want to believe that it didn’t, because…
DJ: But deep down you think it did?
AM: Well, yes.
DJ: Because he took his life, right?
AM: Yes, he took his own life.
DJ: It was just after the war had finished, right?
AM: It’s seven years this February 16th.
DJ: Which means in 2002, right?
AM: Yes. I want to think that it wasn’t because of the war. But the war sure had big effects on him.
DJ: I’m very sorry I’m taking you back to all that…
AM: It’s okay.
DJ: But, I’d like you to say it out loud, all that’s been a burden since the war.
AM: The war sure had effects on him. I knew that because, unlike me, he was very fragile. Maybe I can judge people and label them. But he couldn’t, all people were good for him. All people were the same, he didn’t label anyone. He had friends from all ethnic groups and he was friendly with everyone. I want to believe that the war didn’t make him do it, because I was trying to protect him from it. Because I knew how he was…
DJ: You said he had nightmares, that… he didn’t sleep well?
AM: Yes, he had horrible nightmares, but he… I’m glad he didn’t see, that he didn’t go through the thing me and my dad went through, because if he did, it would have had more drastic consequences on him. His sleepless nights would have been worse, because he had… He got used to the shootings. After the shootings, he never played with any gun toys ever. He threw away all those toys he had at home.
DJ: Your father?
AM: My brother.
DJ: The toys?
AM: Yeah, he threw them all away…
DJ: After your father came back home?
AM: Yes, after my father got back, when the war was over, he jumped. He didn’t want to play with any gun toys. In… he also… I know the war had a lot to do with it. I know that now, but I still don’t want to believe it. I don’t want to believe that he took his own life because of the war, but I know it had a lot to do with it because my whole family was changed. We were no longer a happy family. We weren’t… That bond between us was gone, we were torn apart. Each with his own. And I know he couldn’t handle that because he wasn’t that kind of guy, he wasn’t the kind of person who can bear to see his family…
DJ: He wasn’t so strong?
AM: He wasn’t strong, he wasn’t ready…
DJ: He was just a child, in his 6th grade, right?
AM: Yes, he was in the 6th grade when he took his life.
DJ: He went through a lot of stress when he was in the 5th grade, his father at war, and all the shootings, and he was a very emotional person?
AM: Yes.
DJ: He was very emotional?
AM: He was very, very emotional.
DJ: Would you allow me to conclude that the war was one of the reasons?
AM: Yes, the war torn my family apart. The war brought grief to my family. He couldn’t cope with that and that’s why he put an end to it.
DJ: I know this is really painful for you, Aleksandra, but I’d like you to talk to me about it, because I know your family suffered like no other. Feel free to cry it out because I know that’s good for you.
AM: As I said before, maybe our house was untouched, maybe our whole estate was there, maybe everything was left in its place, but the thing that mattered most, our family, was no longer complete. It wasn’t the same anymore.
DJ: We talked about why you think 2001 happened, now tell me, do you trust the other side?
AM: Trust! I don’t trust them, I simply don’t. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate them. To hate someone, you need to love them first. I don’t hate them. I simply don’t want to be any near them. I don’t want to have anything to do with that community.
DJ: You lost a lot during the conflict, let’s not go over that again, but is there something you gained?
AM: Pain! Bad memories, grief that will stay with me till the rest of my life.
DJ: You’re too young to have your life filled with so many sad moments. Tell me, what do you think about the coexistence now? Is there a possibility for coexistence?
AM: I think there is, if you can call it that, as long as they stay on their side, and we stay on our side. As long as our country is divided in two, we can share the same territory. But to really live with them, I don’t think that’s possible. If it was ever possible, 2001 ruined all the chances.
DJ: You’ve heard about the Framework Treaty. Do you think it’s well implemented, do you think it can bring us permanent peace? The Ohrid Framework Agreement.
AM: Well, I guess that treaty could create a certain “bilance” in this country, between us and them. They hold on to that treaty, they’re trying to show that they respect it, but it’s exactly the opposite, I know it is. We try not to – in a way, we steal from ourselves so that we can give them and we respect the treaty and I think it created “bilance” between us and them.
DJ: Balance.
AM: Yes, balance.
DJ: Do you plan to keep on living with your family? Did they stay in the same house?
AM: No.
DJ: You wouldn’t want to stay with them?
AM: That’s why I went to study in Stip. I could go to Skopje, but I went to Stip because there are no Albanians there, so that’s why I went there. Because I’m afraid of them, in a way. I mean, I’m not afraid of them as people, because they’re people just like me. If you hit me, I’ll hit you back. But I’m afraid that it might happen again, because I lost too much in that war. I’m not ready to go through that again. I’m simply not ready. And when you can’t face your fear, you try to stay away from it. That’s why when I see them, they remind me of something real bad, and I try to avoid them.
DJ: So you fear for your future, you fear it might happen all over again. I was going to ask you that question. How do you picture the justice for what’s been done to you? How can it be given back to you, is there any justice?
AM: There’s no justice.
DJ: You study law, right?
AM: Yes, I do.
DJ: Don’t you want justice for yourself?
AM: There is no…
DJ: Can you forgive them?
AM: I’m human, I can forgive them. But I can’t forget. I can forgive them, I simply don’t have anything to forgive, because they indirectly… During the war, the torn my family apart, they destroyed my life and all that. Indirectly, they took my brother from me.
DJ: Can we ever be at peace with them and how?
AM: Peace? Well, I’m always an optimist. I think there can be peace. But peace could only come if both sides approach each other with honesty. If we realize that we all live in the same country and if they realize that they’re a minority in our country. They were born here, but we speak Macedonian in our country. They are Macedonians here, they’re Albanian minority, that’s what they should understand. They shouldn’t think that if they’re a minority, they’re beneath us. So, there can be coexistence if they present themselves in an honest manner. From what I can see now, both legally and on TV, there cannot be coexistence. They don’t play it fair. From our point of view, they seem more unfair to us than we are to them. I say this as a person, not as a Macedonian. If they play fair, we could live together, we could all realize that we all belong here and that we can prosper together, that we could live together, that we can’t live on our own.
DJ: Do you have any questions? I just wanted to ask you one more thing about the interethnic marriages.
AM: It all depends on one’s personality, it’s individual. If someone thinks he can live like that, I mean, if we talk about a marriage between a Macedonian bride and an Albanian groom, then she’ll have to change her religion too. If that girl is ready to change her beliefs, to change her ethnicity, then I don’t mind.
DJ: Thank you so much for your honesty. I’m sorry I brought back some old pain that perhaps you haven’t faced in a long time. I believe it will help you become even stronger. Is there anything I failed to ask, that you would like to share before we finish?
AM: Nothing, I just wanted to say thank you for this interview. As you said, you made me relief myself of some feelings I have been hiding for a long time. Perhaps I didn’t have a place or a time or a person to share them with. Thank you for doing this interview with me, for opening my soul, in a way.
DJ: Thank you, I wish all the best in your life.