…they ask: “Why won’t you go back? When are you planning to go back, are you going to leave all behind?” They ask as if… as if it was our own fault for what had happened.
FROSINA PANDURSKA-DRAMIKJANIN: So, can you tell us who you are?
KATERINA STOILEVSKA: Hi, I’m Katerina Stoilevska from Skopje, from Arachinovo, 26 years old, a student at the Faculty of Pedagogy in Skopje, unemployed at the moment, yes… that’s it.
FPD: Tell me about before 2001.
KS: Ok, before 2001, I was 16 years old then, I mean, before I left Arachinovo. Life before 2001 had good… had both good and bad moments. Generally, what I remember is mainly positive, with certain incidents, large or small, some provocations coming from the opposite ethnicity, but it was OK, we were hanging out, there was good communication at school with those of our nationality. I went to junior school in Arachinovo, that is, up until 8th grade, we were in separated groups, but we held classes together, because there were not enough students, 1st graders with 3rd graders, 2nd graders with 4th graders. There were separate Albanian groups, yes… and…
FPD: Which classes did you follow together?
KS: Well, technically none, nothing. In the beginning there were some efforts to put us together in some classes, like sport, so that we’d have some activities together, but it was not possible because there were problems between the boys from our side and from theirs, there were fights, so that ended and so we were always alone, separate…
FPD: Were all the teachers Macedonian?
KS: The teachers, yes. Our teachers were Macedonian, their teachers were Albanian, we had an English teacher who was Albanian, the rest were Macedonian, yes. But we knew all of their teachers as well, we were a small class, our group counted 13 students and together with the other group we barely made 20 students, so it was a big class compared to the others. For a while students from Brnjarci, a nearby village, held classes in our school, but they had big problems and that’s why they stopped sending them to our school and transferred them to Chento, that’s where they went, and before that, previous generations had classes in Arachinovo. Now, my class had some Bosniaks from Orlanci as well, that’s another place near Arachinovo, but we never had any trouble with those students, they studied in Macedonian and I don’t know…
FPD: Let’s say, in that informal part of education – school trips, some common activities, were there contact with the Albanians? Did you have any friends among them or some neighbors?
KS: Well, if we’re talking about school, we did have communication with Albanians, because we were… I have personally attended school contests together with Albanian students, both boys and girls… I was being well accepted, with no tensions, no rebukes, what mattered was education, the level of knowledge; it didn’t matter whether I was Macedonian and they Albanians. And about the school trips… in the beginning, we went to school trips together, but there were big problems, fights, mostly between… boys, and we, the girls, were also being provoked, for example they would hit us, pinch us, chase us, address us with some comments, that’s why they held us separated. For example, if they go today, we’ll go the next day or if it was instructed by the Ministry to go on the same day, then we’d go to a different place. So, we never traveled to the same place, if they go to one side of Macedonia, then we’d go to the other, so that there would be no contact, and…
FPD: So, in a way, you could notice this division from when you were a child?
KS: Yes, that division had always existed. Maybe it was for our own protection, so I’m not saying; there were some who wanted and were ready to communicate friendly with us, always, anytime. But a large part of them wouldn’t accept us, they simply looked at us as a minority, because they were in larger numbers and also because we were always, so to speak, under protection. But, in the everyday life, out of school, in my neighborhood, I’ve never had any problems; in the part where I used to live, there were many Macedonians, because my family, they’re natives, so there were Macedonians, but there were also many Albanians who were also natives in Arachinovo. We’ve never had problems with them, maybe when their grandchildren were still young, in the beginning, before they educate them at home…
FPD: In their teenage years…
KS: Yes, in their teenage years, there were some quarrels, but as they grew up, they were being taught by their own parents that we’re simply not that different, that it doesn’t matter that we’re Macedonian and they’re Albanian, so we had good communication with them, they used to invite us for a tea, baklava every time, I’ve attended weddings with my grandma, I was very young, 5th, 6th grade, but I’ve been a guest to their celebrations, so to speak. They used to come to our house all the time, because they didn’t own a phone at the time, I remember well, the Albanians didn’t have a phone, and my grandparents did have one at their home and the Albanians used to come over all the time to make some phone calls because they had relatives abroad, so there was always someone at our home.
FPD: You had normal communication…
KS: Yes, we did.
FPD: Can you think of something nice from your childhood, something that, if you think of Arachinovo… when you want to think of something nice, something to share with us, let’s say, such… such experience? …After that I’ll ask you something else.
KS: I don’t know. I remember, how should I say it. Although I lived in a boarding school for 10 years, I spent my best years there, my childhood, there in Arachinovo. Kids today go through a different childhood. I had a real childhood, as it should be. So there are many good memories, for example all those kids’ games, social games, playing hide and seek with my cousins, with my friends from the neighborhood, Macedonians mostly, sometimes we even played with Albanian kids. Then we played “klinkanica”, it’s how we used to call it, I lived near a crossroad, our house was near a crossroad, we used to draw, play social games, hopscotch… many other games, for example… Arachinovo is a place where people mainly work in agriculture, I used to enjoy the harvesting, I used to ride on a combine (laughs), all those things that would sound absurd to children today, they’re simply not interested in such things. Also, even though I was a girl, I played with boys a lot, because my cousins were mostly guys, I remember to this very day how we’d climb on walnut trees with my cousin and my brother. I used to be jealous, they were boys and they could climb all the way to the highest branches, and I simply had to face the fact that I was a bit different (laughs) and I had to reach the same height on the walnut tree. There were many others, many different games, a real childhood. After that, as time was passing by, our first get-togethers, conversations…
FPD: …going for a coffee…
KS: … coffee, fortunetelling, yes, I never used to drink coffee, I would always have a cocoa, my friends would have a coffee (laughs loudly), yes… and I started drinking coffee in my third year of high school when I came to the boarding school, but I never wanted to stand out, I always wanted to be a part. I had a few friends who lived nearby, we went to school together, some of them were younger and we always used to get together… one day at my place, the next at someone else’s, and we had a real friendship, yes. We could talk about many things, literally anything we could think of. Back then we didn’t have CDs for example, we had stereos after… after I turned 12. Before that, we only had audio cassettes, and I remember when I was a kid we used to gather at my place, before the annual school patronage, to practice for our performance, with the songs, we used to have a good time. Then we had some places where we used to hang out at a certain time during the day and every time we’d get together, we’d say what we had to say and it was nice for us, I don’t know…
FPD: Right. Can you tell me now about some negative experience from before 2001?
KS: Negative experience? Well, negative experience, there were many such moments, for example, when I used to go to the store, we didn’t have a store near our house, and some kid from the opposite ethnicity would meet me and I would have to be careful, whether he will pull my hair, grab my ass, offend me somehow and you simply don’t know how to defend yourself if you’re alone. Yet, I never had any problems for example, I’ve always been brave in such situations, I would walk further from where I was supposed to, always, for example, because in one part of Arachinovo were the Macedonian houses, now, there were some stores where there were Albanians only. I never had a problem with going there, I always used to move around freely. I admit that I was always afraid, because they were more in numbers and I remember for example a few situations, not a few, many such situations in fact, I would run into some older guys, say, if I was around 14, they were around 20, and they’d insult me with some dirty words, and I would always return the insult, but I would never be the one to start it all, I think Macedonians generally were never the ones who would start a quarrel with them, but if you show them weakness, they’d feel even stronger. But otherwise, I’ve personally never had some incident, but there were many in… in Arachinovo, for example people who are still my friends, they were stabbed with a knife on return from school. Then…
FPD: Before 2001?
KS: Yes, before 2001. Then, for example, I was, say, in my first year in high school, and those from the third year, my friends, it happened often, they’d be forced to leave the bus number 55 a few stations away from Arachinovo, at the place called Ekonomija, to be beaten up, forced to get off the bus, without having anyone to protect them. So there were many such bad… bad events, for example, that didn’t concern me personally, fights for example, but usually the boys, yes…
FPD: There, you mentioned that that division has always existed in school, let’s say. When was the first time you felt something sort of changed in Arachinovo? Before 2001, when was it that people started to talk about it? How did life change?
KS: Well, in the beginning, when I was little, I didn’t feel much endangered, personally, how should I say, as a child for example. But, as time was passing by, we started to hear rumors that we might have to move away, that there had been some threats, some Macedonian families had received anonymous letters saying they should move out. I would secretly listen, as a child, to such conversations between my father, my grandfather, the older members of my family. But, I don’t know, the Macedonians thought they should stay there, they shouldn’t leave their homes. Now, I think the crucial change in the relation between Macedonians and Albanians happened during the conflict in Kosovo, when refugees from Kosovo arrived in Arachinovo. I mean, the Albanians were always in greater numbers than us, Macedonians, but when they came, those from Kosovo, I think that’s when trouble began, because the structure… I couldn’t say that had such a big impact, perhaps it did, still they outnumbered us, more came from there, say, the refugees, immigrants, whatever, but I think they changed the way Albanians looked on… on life. I think it was them who encouraged such opinions, say, to fight for their rights, ideas, to ask for more and I think it was mostly because of them that Albanians became unfriendly with Macedonians, that… How should I say it, it was as if they brought some negative energy, those people who came from Kosovo, and I think it was a great danger for Macedonians, like a, like a warning, but nobody took it seriously – before 2001 when four Macedonian cops were murdered in Arachinovo, I mean, they were brutally murdered, and I think that everywhere, not just on TV, people were overwhelmed with fear, we didn’t know how to… how to behave, we were scared, nobody expected such a thing, I mean, no one would expect such a thing to happen anywhere in this country, and it happened right in Arachinovo. That’s where it started, the place was surrounded with military forces, with police and I think that, now I don’t remember well, it took a long time to find out who did it, and that was, not to say ridiculous, but a disaster that four people were killed and the murderers were found much later I think, yes.
FPD: How did… How did you feel about all these events, let’s say, before 2001 happened, did you feel doubt that something might happen or you simply didn’t want to think about it?
KS: Well, I don’t know, I didn’t think, to be honest, I never thought that something like that… I knew, I was being informed by the media about Kosovo, about the refugee crisis, I followed such news on TV, and for example, in my communication with other students, I was in high school back then, in my first year, but I didn’t… I didn’t expect that it would happen here as well, that it will happen right in Arachinovo. I don’t know, somehow subconsciously I’ve always felt some fear from, I don’t know how to say it, from such situations, whenever I’d hear about something like that, about any place, it would always feel unpleasant, I felt, I don’t know, indescribable fear, maybe it was some sort of premonition, maybe deep in myself I knew that something bad would happen, I don’t know, life changed after Kosovo. We didn’t have the same communication as before, people started grouping in smaller circles, how should I say it, even the Albanians were… were being careful when they talked to us, I mean, they communicated with us and they still do, but, how should I put it, it was as if they were cautious in their communication, and, I don’t know, I honestly never expected that. If someone would ask me, for example, whether I thought something like that could happen, I’d say no, not here, never, because Arachinovo has always been Arachinovo, I’ve always felt some kind of safety, because my grandfather has been living there for a long time. Maybe because I knew from before about those who had been receiving threats to move out, maybe because, how should I say, we got over it, or, I don’t know… maybe it’s because of that that I never thought I’d be the one to be forced away from my own home, to become a internally displaced person, I never expected anything like that, and the very fact that we left Arachinovo – now I’m talking about 2001 – with just one bag, speaks for itself, that we weren’t ready for something like that. I think, if people… there were some Macedonian families who sold their homes in Arachinovo, but they would just sell the house in one part of the village…
FPD: Before 2001?
KS: Before 2001, they would sell their house, and then they would buy another one also in Arachinovo, in some other part of the village, somewhere around. What I’m trying to say is that if people had anticipated any trouble, that something was going to happen, they weren’t going to allow it, they would have tried to find a solution to move somewhere.
FPD: Tell me, when 2001 happened, how did… what was the first thing you experienced, your family at home? Did you, did you think, at that moment, that the situation was serious?
KS: This is how it was: when 2001 happened, and even before that, we heard some rumors that something is on in Tetovo, that in Kosovo something is being prepared, and Macedonia is somehow involved, but nothing about Arachinovo. We didn’t think anything like that would happen, everything was normal. We knew from TV that something was wrong, but nobody ever mentioned Arachinovo. People were not warned, no one said anything, no one warned us something bad might happen. Because, I remember well, before it happened, in June 2001, a few months before, some representatives from the Macedonian families went to see the Mayor and the Mayor publicly announced that there’s no need to…
FPD: …to panic.
KS: … to panic, that people were safe, that nothing was going to happen, that we shouldn’t panic and spread rumors, because it hadn’t been confirmed in the media yet, but people were talking in Arachinovo that something was on, but nobody took it seriously, even though all the people, even Albanians, started to move out all of a sudden, a few days before June. Before there was nothing, a few, how should I put it, was it a month before June 2001, rumors started spreading that armed forces had entered Arachinovo.
FPD: You found out about that from the news or from your neighbors?
KS: We found out from our neighbors, there was nothing on the news, no announcements, nothing was confirmed, a day or two before we left Arachinovo, our Mayor, as I said, had publically claimed that Arachinovo was a safe place to live, that no one was in danger and stuff like that, and now, that month, not in June, but in May, I remember we – there were some Macedonians who had heard something, from I don’t know what source of information, probably just rumors, or from talking to each other, that there’s a possibility that something was cooking in Arachinovo and so many people left their homes.
FPD: Over night?
KS: Yes, some families left over night. The conflict had already began, I don’t know exactly where, I think that the shooting had already started, and I remember that after that people were away from their homes for a few days, and they had taken everything with them, some furniture, personal belongings… After that they got back, they got back because…
FPD: That same month?
KS: The same month, it was May, I remember well, they got back. It was in the middle of May. And I remember June 2nd, it was a Saint’s day. We were celebrating in Arachinovo – if people thought they weren’t safe, than no one would have stayed there. And I think, I don’t know, we were not ready for such a thing, we were still in Arachinovo.
FPD: Did you see the Albanians moving out?
KS: In our part, no, they weren’t moving out. I think our neighbors too, I remember my father telling people have been whispering something was going to happen, but, like, there was no way such a thing would happen. Everyone…
FPD: No one believed it would?
KS: I think even the Albanians, those who had been living there for long, refused to believe it. But I think they knew, you can’t just prepare those trenches over night, we found out about them after we had left Arachinovo, we found out that things had changed in Arachinovo, that armed forces had been stationed there, and the way things happened – I was at school right then. I was at school, and I remember my class mentor came… she seemed surprised, she called me, “Katerina Stoilevska”, I stood up as usually, didn’t expect it could be something important, I was even surprised by the look on her face, she was petrified, and she said: “You’re still here?” you know, and I said “yes, why? Where am I supposed to be?” She said: “Can you please”, like, “come with me for a while” As she spoke, I left my school bench and she said: “No, no, no”, she said, “go back! All your belongings, take it with you!” Now, honestly, at that moment I thought that, I don’t know how to put it, some stupid thought went through my head that something might have happened to my close ones, because when your teacher calls you with such a look on her face, you always think of something like that. Now, the first thing that went through my head was “oh God, what happened?”… and I walked out and she said: “Listen”, she said, “you don’t have to come to classes anymore”, she said, “you must go home immediately”, she said, “I don’t know why”, she said, “but, they say it on the news, you know, that people from Arachinovo should…” like… she said “I don’t know what exactly is going on.” And she didn’t want to…
FPD: …to explain.
KS: To explain, she didn’t know what to say, I think she was also very confused. I was excited, she told me that she had contacted my dad and that he had confirmed that I must go home. I remember I asked her whether something had happened with someone from my family, and she said: “no, no, no, it’s nothing like that”, you know, like: “you just go home.” And I remember I felt kind of lost, I had no idea what was going on, nobody explained, I was alone, there was no one else from Arachinovo in my school generation, there were some among the older and younger students though, but there was no way I could find them, plus they had classes in different time of the day. I remember, in the bus number 55, riding for home, there were not many people, just a few Albanians staring at me weirdly, wondering why am I going to…
FPD: Arachinovo.
KS: To Arachinovo. The bus station was far from where I lived, 20 minutes of walking and as I walked I felt as if my legs were disobeying, wanting to go back, because there was nobody on the street, it was a creepy image, I think I’ll never forget it, because down the road, where it began, there was a canal, and as you walk by it, you come upon acacia trees, very tall trees, aspen trees, and all seemed creepy, you couldn’t even hear…
FPD: Silence.
KS: …a bird – all was silent, some sort of, I don’t know, dreadful silence. Now, as I walked, I don’t know, many thoughts baffled me, why did it look like that? Because I’m used to – there was no way before that I would go out on the street in Arachinovo, without meeting many people (laughs), there were children all the time, if not Macedonian, than Albanian kids any time of the day, except perhaps at night. The evenings had always been silent, that’s a fact. So in the past, before 2001, people were out till 8-9 pm, and after that it was calm, but as I walked home, there was no one. Now, I’m walking home and I don’t get it, why is that so, no one on the streets, otherwise I would at least listen to the sound of gates opening and closing, because they had heavy gates, and now, nothing, nothing… And when I got home, my mum was all like: “So, you’re here?”, you know. I say: “Yes, what’s going on? Why did you ask for me?” She says: “Your dad is about to come.” Now, we’re sitting, doing nothing, you know, I still didn’t know why they had ask me to come home. And I remember my dad came back and my cousin called at that moment, asking where we are, and I answered the phone and said: “Well, I’m at home”, I said, “I just got back from school”, I said, “why are you asking?”, I said, “how, where am I supposed to be?” And all panicked she said: “Are you crazy”, she said, “the uniformed people[1]…”
FPD: […] have entered
KS: …”have entered”, she said, “and they’re coming through the fields”, so from Belimbegovo, now Ilinden, “they’re coming from Belimbegovo, you know, everybody’s talking”, she said, “what are you doing?!”, she said “don’t just stand there, something could happen, move right away!” That was the only thing she said, I didn’t know that if it was right, and after that, I remember I called a friend, she confirmed they had already moved, and we, even though we had been informed about the… the uniformed people and we still couldn’t believe it, we tried to call other people, to ask them, to make sure, because, I remember well, my grandpa always used to say that no man can chase him away from his own house, and yet that’s exactly what happened, and I remember we felt lost, we didn’t know where to go, my mom started crying and I also… my tears were falling… I panicked, and that fear that I had felt from before, it’s like, it exploded inside me, once again I was horrified, and we started moving around, from the living room to the bedroom, then to another room… we were running around as if we had lost our heads, we didn’t know what to do, what to take with us, and I went to pack my books, I remember that’s what I packed. I said to my mother “what should I pack?”, she said “I don’t know, take one bag”, she said, “and pack whatever you can”, she said, “we don’t have time. God forbids…“ It didn’t matter then that we had to run, what mattered was to save ourselves. It didn’t matter what we were going to take with us. I remember, a few days later, when the shock of running away was already gone, my mother called my aunt in Skopsko Pole, her sister, that’s where we stayed for a while. I remember, when we went there, it was summer, and I had only managed to take a few shirts with me, with long sleeves, I mean, I didn’t even manage to pack some panties in that one bag, or… anything, I left with nothing. Just some slippers on me, so to speak, my parents also, we didn’t even take any documents, nothing, we left everything there. And so, we were running away… what else happened, now, while we were running away we were all panicked, I started crying, my mother was trying to calm me down, I remember as if it was yesterday, my father was trying to convince us not to panic, to calm down, you know, they were both trying to calm the situation, but it was impossible, after what we heard, I don’t know, maybe I was 16, but how should I say it, I was still just a child. Kids today are not the way we were. I was 16 and I wasn’t matured yet, I was still a child, and the moment I heard “armed forces”, fear stroke me and I don’t know… they couldn’t calm me down. And so we got on our way, my grandpa had a van back then, we left with one bag, all panicked, and on our way, after 300 meters passed, my mom realized that she had forgotten to lock the door in all that chaos. So we, how should I put it, we were running… every time I… sometimes when I try to analyze things that had happened, even though 10 year have passed, I mean, you’re running for your life, and your parents are thinking about… how should I say, on one hand, we’re running for our lives, but on the other, we still weren’t aware of what had been going on, we went back to lock the door.
FPD: And so, you went back?
KS: Yes, we went back and didn’t take anything more with us, and at that moment, I remember, I saw my neighbors – as I said before, our house was near a crossroad – my neighbors were in their front yard, they hadn’t moved yet. The mother with three children, my dad’s best friend, we took them with us, they had no idea what was going on, we told them that we were going to wait for them, I don’t remember for how long, was it 10 or 15 minutes, just till they pack some stuff, but they too left everything behind and I remember that we… left together, how should I say, we ran away from Arachinovo… and, I don’t know, I don’t think I could ever forget that day. After that we started to calm down, and as we were leaving Arachinovo, there was no one around, and earlier we’d see some cars moving, before those days, but there weren’t any…
FPD: Con… convoys…
KS: Yes, convoys, and I think mostly, as I said before, Arachinovo was peaceful at night, it was peaceful before, but those few… one or two weeks, how should I say it, it wasn’t peaceful anymore, you could hear trucks, cars, tractors at night, people would disappear overnight, they were leaving, and it was as if we hadn’t noticed any of that. And when we were leaving, there was no one around, the same scene as before, when I was going back home from school… And then, as we were leaving the village… as we were passing through Arachinovo towards Brnjarci, the checkpoints were already there. So… so, people…
FPD: I guess, that’s when you figured out…
KS: Yes, it struck us then, how should I put it, it was like you realize you’ve just run away from home and it was somebody else’s fault, you realize it turned out to be something far more serious. Because I think we hadn’t realized it before that, because, how should I put it, our lives were in great danger, we could have… They announced that access to Arachinovo was forbidden right after we had left and that…
FPD: … no one can enter or leave the village…
KS: … that no one can enter or leave the village, that the armed groups had publicly claimed Arachinovo their territory and that those who hadn’t left yet are stuck there. When we left, there were still some Macedonians in Arachinovo, they were my relatives and they had to be…
FPD: …rescued…
KS: …rescued by police forces, yes, I remember there were some who had to go back, my neighbor had to go back to pick up some medicine for his children and was brutally beaten for – how should I say it -something that mattered to him, the medicine, for his son’s life. Yes, and I think we hadn’t realized the gravity of the situation, because we went back to lock the house, I don’t know, as if we weren’t, I don’t know, on one hand, we were informed about it, but on the other, as if we couldn’t believe it, I think we refused to accept… that the situation was real. And yet, as we were driving out of Arachinovo, as we reached the last station of the bus number 45 in Cento, there were… Macedonian military forces, which means it had all been prepared for, how should I say, for military actions. We realized then how serious it actually was. Yes, and long after that, because it’s been a long time now, and we, me for example, when, during a conversation, when those times are being mentioned, the escape and all those stressful events, they affect me, and I don’t want to remember it, but I can’t forget, I can’t simply wipe away my past, that’s a fact. I always ask myself the same question: what if…? I don’t know, it was as if God was looking after us and I’m always thankful because, I don’t know, after all, it was thanks to God that we survived, because it was a life or death situation.
FPD: You said you were settled at your aunt’s house in the beginning – how long did you stay there? How did you feel in those first days?
KS: Well, we stayed at my aunt’s for about two weeks, I think. Maybe less, I don’t remember exactly. Those first days, I refused to talk to anybody, I remember I cried a lot, I didn’t want to talk about anything, my aunt was trying to calm me down, my mother was all panicked, my dad was trying to calm us down… So we stayed at her place… Thanks to her, I mean, she was the first person we called and she took us in, I can’t say it was otherwise, because, later in conversations with other people, I heard that many had been refused when they were trying to settle somewhere, we didn’t have such problems, my aunt took us in right away, also my other relatives from my father’s side, they offered us to go the them right away as well, but we decided to go to my aunt’s, I don’t know why, maybe because she was our closest relative at the time. Not that we were in bad relations with the others, but it simply happened like that in that moment. I think it didn’t even matter where we were going to be, because all our close relatives had their doors opened for us. How did we feel? I don’t know, we were trying, I mean, nobody builds their house for others to live there, they build them according to their own needs, and so it was difficult, there were four of us and four of them, all sleeping in the same bed, we had nothing, one must think of… Not only was our daily rhythm changed, but also their rhythm of life, and we’re thankful for that. It was difficult, it was already on the news, it was no longer some military secret that something was on, so it was already, how should I say it, somehow… I don’t know how to… explain that fact, that Arachinovo was already ethnically cleansed, and that’s what I think had always been the goal, to make it completely Albanian, because before 2001, there were 600 of us and 10.000 of them, maybe even 15.000 and… I think people were fooling themselves that they might build some kind of life there… Now, even then, a few days after we had left, we still weren’t aware that… that it was going to take so long. I think – no, I’m certain that my parents, my father for example, and others from the family, my grandpa, they all expected it to end quickly, that we were going to go back in short time, but I remember there were some negotiations with the rebels from the UCK [National liberation army], because even before all of that, I could see slogans of UCK all over Arachinovo, yes… I remember, I few months before that event – and it was everywhere, and it’s the same in any country, it happens in Macedonia all the time: scrabbles on the walls of buildings, of monuments and other things, we still have that lack of culture, only today it’s about party slogans. So, a few months before the event… I mean, Arachinovo has never been… I remember well…
FPD: …has never had such […]
KS: …I’ll just tell you an example, not a stupid one, but an actual one. The Albanians have always lived surrounded by big walls with big gates, so, as I say, they keep a good eye on their palaces, because they were really well situated, at least in the part where I used to live, they had nice homes, well decorated, both from the inside and the outside. And before all that happened, their walls were clean, but a few months before 2001, some slogans started to appear, I remember well, drawn in black, UCK, some offensive… I know there were a few “Death to all Macedonians” in Albanian, because I speak Albanian, and there were other slogans saying Arachinovo belonged to them, not to us, something like that, and I remember that all those slogans started to appear suddenly, just a few months before we moved out, and they were everywhere. Then, as I said, to rewind a little back, it had been publically announced that the government had been negotiating with the so called UCK, which was associated to… as I remember […] I heard it was the same one from Kosovo, that it’s their army, that they would fight for their rights, for their own national state, that they were negotiating with the highest officials from our government, with people from the high military circles, and I remember well that there were no tensions in the beginning, it was peaceful, and we, I mean, my father and other people his age, they thought they were going to go back.
FPD: That it was going to settle down in short time…
KS: Yes, that things were going to settle down and that we were going to go back home. Furthermore, it was even more difficult for me because it was summer and I was supposed to have my internship and I still remember, I was spending those days at home, I mean, at my aunt’s, it was very hard for me and I couldn’t pull myself together, everything was fresh and vivid in my head, and yet somehow I managed to gather strength to realize that I had to – that I couldn’t stay… that my responsibilities were waiting, that I had to pass, I was studying medicine you know, I was at the nurse school and I had to take that internship, and I didn’t even have any clothes in the beginning, I had to take some from my cousin. It was very unpleasant for me in high school, even before 2001, I mean, it’s different at the university, there are plenty of students, it’s not possible for the professors to…
FPD: To know everybody…
KS: …to know, to have information on… on any student, but in high school it’s a whole different thing, there were 39 of us in class, there was much more communication, teachers knew that I was from Arachinovo, I even remember them, before 2001 I mean, finding it strange, I mean, even back then there was – as if we were standing out… they were surprised by the way…
FPD: Could we say, some sort of discrimination…
KS: Yes, some sort of… discrimination, some sort of distrust, I don’t know how to describe it, as if they thought it was strange that someone who went to primary school in Arachinovo could pass an exam with an A… Then all those questions, what does my father do, what does my mother do, I could hear them often both before and after 2001, yes. And I remember, when 2001 happened, everybody knew I was from Arachinovo, and it was hard for me that some were trying to help me, but they couldn’t, they could only ask, I mean, my friends were asking if I needed anything, you know, the kind of moral support that every normal person with a human heart would offer to someone in such position, I mean, clothes, money, everything, I could count on that kind of support at any moment by those few friends and even by some who weren’t my friends, who were simply my classmates with whom I had never been close. We were always separated in groups, I mean, we were not all united in our class, and I think that after that event those who wanted to help me really helped me a lot and I’m still grateful, but there were some who were pushing me with… with stupid questions… How did you run away from home? Who did you run with, where did you go, who took you in… You know, they were forcing me to go through the whole thing all over, and there were even some absurd questions: How come you have nothing? Why didn’t you take your stuff? Yes, I didn’t know, you know, I refused to…
FPD: Were teachers asking such…
KS: No, not the teachers… The teachers were trying to calm me down, to cheer me up, saying that it was going to be alright, that I shouldn’t panic, and I remember one teacher saying, “If you”… like, “Are your parents well? Do you have any brothers or sisters?” And I explained. “Are you all well?” she said, and I said “yes”, and she said: “That’s what matters, everything else will come to place.” I think it was her that showed me a brighter side and made me optimistic…
FPD: She made you feel better?
KS: She made me feel better.
FPD: You were telling me about… how disappointed you felt during your internship.
KS: Yes.
FPD: So, what happened, what had changed, had you started with your internship from before or was that the first time you were internship?
KS: That’s when I started with my summer internship. Now, I was trying to explain that it was about working with people, that it’s no joke and that I wasn’t able to do it at the time and I remember there was certain disapproval in the beginning, like: “how can you not be able?” I think people hadn’t yet realized the gravity of the situation at that time, maybe because some of them had their own problems, maybe that’s why I received such feedback. I remember one teacher saying: “How can you skip your internship? No matter what happened you’re still a student, you must be prepared at any moment.” And I remember it was very hard for me in the beginning, because I was still stressed, I was still obsessed with what had happened, but as I said, I had a few friends and I still have them. One of them was in a similar situation, even worse than mine, with Serbia, she is still my friend and I think that ever since I started high school I’ve always wanted to talk to her about that, but I was always being careful what kind of questions to ask anytime we’d talk about that, but then when it happened to me too, I think that’s when I understood, as they say, you can’t know how it is until you feel it on your own skin, and I hope nobody will ever go through that and… I talked to her about that and she… she gave me some technical advice (laughs) on how I should cope with that, how I should behave and I think that’s when I started to pull myself together and I realized that perhaps the teachers were right, that I have to take care of my responsibilities and that life must go on.
(10 minute break)
FPD: Now, we reached the moment when you’re supposed to leave your aunt’s. When did your parents tell you that you’re going to a community house?
КС: Mhm. This is how it was: we were at my aunt’s for a week or two, and first we thought it was all going to end soon, but then rumors started to spread that it might actually take a while, the whole process, maybe even for a few months, and people had already started to move into the community houses, and we, I mean my dad decided that there’s no need to be at someone’s back, to bother other people, that even though we were well accepted, it still wasn’t fair to disrupt their way of life and that’s why he decided for us to go to live in a community house. I mean, he wasn’t the only one, he was communicating with others from Arachinovo, both with Macedonians and Albanians who had left the village, and the government made an offer to put us in a community house and I remember the choice, it wasn’t, I mean…
FPD: What do you mean?
KS: I mean, we weren’t limited in our choice of a community house, there was a list, a few places were offered and I don’t know why we – maybe the others had already been overcrowded, because we weren’t… with my uncle, we didn’t go to the same community house, he went to “Senik”, and we went to “Partenie Zografski”, and I remember when I heard about that I thought it was strange, I didn’t know how to accept it, but it was a fact that we simply had to leave my aunt’s place, because it was clear that the whole situation is going to last for a few months, at least that’s how long we thought it was going to last, and, what do I know? We received the news with displeasure, but on the other hand we were prepared for that, because we knew we couldn’t stay longer and it was different, we started to prepare in time, although there wasn’t much to pack (laughs ironically), because we had no clothes, all we had was what had been given to us by our relatives, by my aunt, some stuff that my parents bought, that we managed to buy in those first few weeks… And I have to say, I find it interesting, it’s not funny at all but, every time I’d – I’m talking about high school – any time I’d pass through Madzari – Triangla, riding in the bus number 55, passing through…
FPD: …the overpass…
KS: No, not the overpass, but the “Mihajlo Pupin – ETUC” high school, I’d always take a look at “Partenie Zografski”, that… that part of the city, I’d been passing there often for whatever cause, and I don’t know, me and my friends would always wonder, looking at those two buildings, at the yard, I was always wondering what it was. I could see the sign “Partenie Zografski” and I… I never asked anyone at home, maybe they knew from before what kind of place it was, that it was a high school for the deaf and dumb, and I always wondered what it was… I don’t know, strange.
FPD: Ok, the building is […]
KS: […] the building, yes, and afterwards I would often say that there was no need for me to wonder because later I spent no more no less, but exactly 10 years in that building, in that place and I learned exactly what kind of place it is. As I say, maybe it was some stupid mystery, maybe fate, but either way, I found out what kind of place it was. On one hand, my experience in “Partenie Zografski” was dark, I’ll talk about it later, but on the other it was a positive experience as well, we’ll talk about that too, and I don’t know, we accepted the fact that we had to go there, it wasn’t… it wasn’t all the same to us, because on one hand it wasn’t easy because we knew we had to leave my aunt’s home, we couldn’t live in somebody else’s house forever, but on the other hand, it was hard to accept that there’s a place, Arachinovo, where we had a house of our own, we had… each had his own room, and now we were forced to live all buckled up in one room. That’s what they offered us, one room, four meters square for all the four of us, my mom, my dad, my brother and me. My grandpa wasn’t with us, because they didn’t have rooms for five people, so my grandpa, an old man of 60 something, had to share a room with a student, yes, because there was no room elsewhere, so he had to go live with a student, and, I mean, and old retired guy living with a stranger, a student, I mean…
FPD: A student who wants to party […]
KS: Yes, who… who has nothing in common with an old man. He can barely get along with his own parents, and even less with an old guy… A student! And a stranger too, can you believe it?
FPD: Were you and your grandpa on the same floor?
KS: No, he lived on the first floor, and we were on the third.
FPD: What was it like when you moved in, were others settled there already, was it already filled?
KS: When we moved in… when we moved in, most of the… we settled… among the last families, most of the people from Arachinovo had already moved in. I don’t know, I think my dad had found out a bit later about the place, I don’t know what was the reason he didn’t engage right away about finding a place for us, and I remember it was still full of students because it was during the June exam session, there were students from other cities in Macedonia as well, because “Partenie Zografski” wasn’t just, wasn’t just a school for the deaf and dumb, but it was also a dormitory for university students who came to study in Skopje. I remember we literally forced some students out of our room. I remember when we got inside our room, there were students living there, but they were full of understanding. There was no trouble, no quarrels, no…
FPD: I guess they had been told…
KS: Yes, they had been told, they had been notified, but they didn’t expect it so soon, they thought it was going to be sometime later, I think “Partenie” wasn’t even, at the start it wasn’t even on the list of places for accommodation of internally displaced persons, but there was no more room in the other centers, so people had to… people from Arachinovo had to go there and we were among the last… to come in that place. And… I don’t know, in the beginning it was awkward, I mean, on one hand we were pleased that we were no longer a burden, but on the other hand, if you make a comparison…Once we had everything and then we had nothing, just a simple room with four beds, and it was all a bit confusing… In the beginning we had trouble communicating with folks from Arachinovo, we didn’t know where everybody was, cell phones were still a luxury then, it’s when they started to be used. In the past we communicated through the phone and we all lived close in Arachinovo, and now we were all dispersed and we couldn’t locate each other, I remember everything we knew about people from Arachinovo was through other people, my dad was trying to find out about his friends and relatives, we were trying to find out about our friends, cousins and after a while… after a week we managed to find out where was everybody, who was placed in our dormitory and who wasn’t, and I don’t know, the first few days, I remember many journalists were coming, people from foreign NGOs, from other countries, sent here, and they all wanted to talk to us, to ask us about what had happened and how it had happened.
FPD: How did you feel about that, was it hard for you?
KS: I don’t know, it was hard, I didn’t want to talk about it, I had barely gotten over all that and now they were trying to get me back to it, and some were asking – some knew how to ask the right questions, but others would ask absurd questions: “Why won’t you go back?” I mean, they’re saying on the news that it’s not safe, and these people are still asking: “Why won’t you go back? When are you planning to go back, are you going to leave all behind?” They ask as if… as if it was our own fault for what had happened. And of course it wasn’t, it was far from our fault, it was somebody else who was making the decisions about Arachinovo, and I remember before… before we moved in the dormitory, there were people going to the overpass in Ilinden to watch what was going on in Arachinovo, it was during the preparations for the military action, Arachinovo was supposed to be razed to the ground, but in the last moment… I remember, we all… people both from Arachinovo and from outside the village were all very interested in the case. Then the military action was launched and I remember everyone expecting to see Arachinovo in ashes, everything had already been on, but in the end the action was canceled and all that had been ruined by then was left like that, I know many people were using binoculars to see their homes, so even though we weren’t in Arachinovo, my dad and my uncle were keeping an eye on the situation there, and all the others, I think that… Both Macedonians and Albanians were trying to stay informed about the condition of their homes because, Arachinovo might be as big as a town by the number of houses now, but back then, there were also many houses, but you could see every house from far away, it was easy to…
FPD: […] visible.
KS: It was more visible, not that it isn’t now, but people then knew exactly where their houses are and they followed the situation with binoculars and on the news, everyone was paying attention to what had been going on, and when the action was over, back in the dormitory you could hear something new every day: “my house has been crashed”, “mine has been burned down…” I know that it was forbidden to go inside Arachinovo after the action was over. No one could go in, only the army reserve was there, and I know that later some families’ older members managed to enter…
FPD: To check.
KS: Yes, to ch… to check, I mean, they were only allowed to go to the secured areas because mines had been planted in some parts, not by our army, but by the UCK, and as we were told, the area was being checked at that time, and locals weren’t allowed to take anything from their homes, they were only allowed to go inside escorted by police, by OSCE, I think that’s how it was, they were allowed in so that they could see the condition of their homes. And so in…
FPD: When was the moment when – after you came to “Partenie”, or even after the conflict was over, after the things were back to normal – when you realized that your stay won’t actually be temporary and that you are not going back home?
KS: Well… After we settled in “Partenie”, it was difficult in the beginning, as I said, because we were all put in the same room, and there were, say, nine rooms on each floor, a family of four in each room, it means 36 people with one bathroom, we had to wait in long lines, lists were being made, people were fighting. Now, at first people only talked about the conflict, that was the main subject among the internally displaced persons and I think everybody thought it was going to be over soon and we all expected to stay there for two or three months top, and after a while people started to receive permits to go back to their homes, some found out their homes were in ashes, I remember foreign NGOs were coming, and I remember, I think that the main reason why we weren’t allowed to go back and why it was all postponed was the unhappy event when one of our own was killed by a bomb in his own home. I went there once with my father, I was interested to see, my father was going every day after the announcement that people can enter with military esc…I mean, police escort, but he was only allowed to take some necessary documents, such as health insurance documents and IDs, I didn’t even have those, and I remember that people started to act more freely, there were many Macedonian houses that had been mined, burned to the ground, smashed by the Albanians, also where bunkers had been stationed, for military supplies for example, and that information started to reach us after Macedonians had started to go to Arachinovo and I know that a lot of… From the opposing side, their UCK army, all that was needed for their preparations, for their military actions, their lodging, all their activities were based in Macedonian houses. Yes, which means there had to be…
FPD: … someone to show them.
KS: … someone to show them, I mean, it’s more than clear that there were some locals who collaborated with them and they showed them which house is Macedonian, which is Albanian, otherwise it’s not possible for them to know, and I think what had a great impact on the things was that event, when the Macedonian, our relative…
FPD: Which month was that?
KS: I don’t know which month, I don’t remember, was it August, something like that. I know it had been a month or two since it all started, so August or September, I’m not sure, I only know that, as I said before, we had gone to our house a couple of times, and our house was intact, not a single bullet in the walls, because it was in the low part of the village, near the exit from Ilinden and I know my mom was panicked every time my dad went there, she wouldn’t let him go, she begged him to be careful even though they were saying on the news that the area had been secured, I remember they went to Arachinovo that day, I wasn’t with them, it was just my mom, my dad and my brother, and it was in the upper parts of the village, a mine exploded, while the news was saying that it was secured, and I think that, how should I say it…
FPD: Was someone killed then?
KS: No, no one was killed because the mine was, I don’t know, somewhere on the road, no one was… But, I remember, how should I put it, people were in high spirits besides all that had happened, I mean, even though many had their homes ruined, they were still planning to go back, because – I don’t know how they felt about that, I can’t speak in their name. Our house wasn’t much damaged, some things had been stolen from inside the house, and during that month when no one was allowed to go in, we thought it could be fixed, that if we worked hard… if we saved some money, we could have it all back again, but then the bomb, when that man was killed, I think it affected many of the Macedonians because it’s not the same to lose an object, a TV, a phone or anything and to lose a human life and I think people began to fear for their own lives, so that unhappy event affected us all, I think people began to think differently about Arachinovo. Before that, even though we were cast away, banished without a warning and no one could protect us, we were still going to go back, but then, after the man got killed, I think everybody started thinking differently and I simply think that no one is crazy enough to put his own life in danger, to let himself be killed for…
FPD: Here’s a more general question: you described all the hard moments, the escape, life in the dormitory and all about how difficult it was for you to get used to it. From this perspective, could you say whether something has changed about you personally after the conflict?
KS: Whether something has changed? Much has changed. As I said, when I left Arachinovo I was very young, 16 years old, even though I was already in high school, I felt like a child, I don’t know, maybe that’s how I’ve been brought up, maybe that’s why I was still a child, maybe other kids mature earlier on, I don’t know. I think 2001 forced us to grow up prematurely, it gave us a different pace of life. After we… after we settled in the dormitory, we were instantly labeled as internally displaced persons, we received special documents for a free ride in the public transport, and I still remember, the first few years, the first three or four years, we were being granted such documents, and every time a conductor would pass to check the tickets, he would start harassing me why I don’t have an ID, and I was a minor! If you’re in high school, then you’re a minor; we also received a card, so the original, we weren’t allowed to use the photocopies, so from one side they were telling us that we have advantages, but on the other we were limited and it was very uncomfortable that every time we were on a bus people would – doesn’t matter if it’s on a line which is mostly used by Macedonians or by both, it doesn’t matter – people would literally stare at us, whether I was alone or with somebody else and I could always hear them speaking: “These folks from Arachinovo, what more do they want? They got it all, they’ve been given a place to stay, the state is covering their expenses, they’ve been given food and they’re still asking for…” I mean, people have, I don’t know, a negative attitude towards us, I mean, they knew, only they didn’t want to accept that what happened was right here in Skopje, that Arachinovo is not so far from the city, they shouldn’t act as if they don’t know where it is, there are many other places in Ara… in Skopje which are further away from the center of Skopje. I think people simply refused to accept that and they looked at as a lower class, they dared to comment on our situation, maybe because it didn’t affect them personally, in fact, I guarantee that’s the reason why they were making such comments, because it didn’t happen to them, yes, and I think by doing so they showed what kind of persons they are, they showed their value.
FPD: Did that affect you?
KS: To tell you the truth, it affected me a lot, because it wasn’t my fault for what had happened, that’s how I looked on that, I mean, Macedonia is not the only country which went through a war or a military conflict, doesn’t matter, there are wars all over the world and it hurt that people thought I was less of a person, that I was worthless, that I was… that I had to be treated differently just because I had to live in one room, because I was a internally displaced person, it wasn’t my fault. It wasn’t our fault. It hurt that people, as I said before, were asking all those malevolent questions, and no one was trying to understand, to help. They were just talking without thinking that what they’re saying might hurt somebody, without thinking it could happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime and I think it affected me a lot, and many times when I was on a bus with some of my friends, when they would hear people talking like that, they’d start a quarrel, they’d pick a fight, but I couldn’t, I’ve always avoided starting a fight, besides I thought it wasn’t necessary to explain myself in front of anybody about my situation because I could see they weren’t willing to help, they could only make it worse, and I was already filled with negative energy because of all that had happened and a fight would only make it worse. What else happened… my pace of life changed in a bad way, I was limited about everything. As I said, it didn’t matter how much we had before, but now me, a teenager, in the same room with my parents, with a younger brother. Each has his own matters to do, each has different interests, which is natural when we are all different age, I mean, even people who are the same age have different interests, it’s all individual, and so, everyone was trying to go on with his own matters and there were many conflicts, many stressful situations, sometimes within the family… and sometimes because of other people, I mean, everything was made difficult for me, my everyday life was made difficult, I used to study out loud, I mean, I still do, and I was forced to wait for everyone to fall asleep so that I could study, I couldn’t go to the library because the university students were still there. It was very loud in the dormitory, in the beginning it was just us folks from Arachinovo, and then many of them started moving out as they were fixing their housing issues. So there was a lot of noise, and I had to get myself ready for my exams, first in high school, then at the university, and it all affected me in a bad way because I was forced to stay there, there was no way out, it wasn’t my fault, it wasn’t my parent’s fault, we simply had to stay there. It all affected me, I mean, many times I had no room to change my clothes, of course I wouldn’t do it in front of my parents. So I had to wait in line in front of the shared bathroom and I remember, like all young people I wanted to go out, I had to be ready at a certain time, and there I am waiting in line for 15 minutes because the bathroom is occupied, then I go inside to change my clothes, and it’s all wet, and everything I’ve been planning to wear is getting…
FPD: …soaked.
KS: … soaked, and I’m even more frustrated. And all that frustration, you need to channel it somehow, and of course, you always direct it to your closest ones, you can’t direct it to someone random (laughs), that didn’t happen much. All those bad things shaped me as a person, I think they made me grow up in a different way, because some things happened after 2001 that made me realize what matters in life and I realized that sometimes when it seems there’s no way out, you must simply look at it as a lesson, you must… you must try to find the good side about the bad thing that happened to you, especially if it’s not your fault.
FPD: When were the hardest times for you?
KS: The hardest… as I said, in the dormitory it was just us from the closest family, the rest were people from all over Arachinovo, there were some I had never met before. So we had to live with people who were strangers, although there were some I had already known. So there were many situations when it was very hard for me, I mentioned studying, but all that turned out well, because, even though I had to study till three or four in the morning, had to prepare for an exam for an 8 am exam till 6 in the morning, I was still a good student […] more or less, I never failed to complete my school tasks, even though I was much more limited than the rest of the students. In the dormitory, we were hanging out with people from Arachinovo, some of my old friends were being sent to different centers, and I communicated with them too, but we grew closest to those living in our community house. With time, I made new friends and grew even closer to the old ones, we were simply all one big family. So those of us who stayed in the community house – because as I said, some managed to find themselves a different solution, instead of waiting for the lawsuit against the state to come to an end, like we did, like we waited for 10 years for the amends. As I said, we were all one big family, for better or for worse, those of us who were the same age went through a lot of bad things, we understood each other well because we were going through the same trouble, first in Arachinovo and now in the community house, everything on that subject, we could always say to each other how we felt, how much we miss our bedrooms, and everything else, how sorry we were that our parents had to wait in the hall so that we could have friends over and many other things. As I said, I went through a lot in the community house. It was OK while it was just us from Arachinovo […] but then the students came, now I’ll mention a few situations when it was really difficult for me. Now, the students had their own culture, some of them are still my friends today thanks to “Partenie Zografski”, that’s a big advantage in my life and if I ask myself what’s the one good thing about “Partenie”, that would be it. If I wish to travel in any part of Macedonia, where I never had the chance to go before because my relatives mostly live in Skopje, if I want to go there just for fun, I still have many friends to go to – not too many, you could count them with one hand, but, they’re all from different parts of Macedonia and, say, if I call them in 4 in the morning, they’d be there for me, whether they’re in Strumica, Tetovo, Bitola, Kocani and so on, any place where I have friends thanks to “Partenie Zografski”. Now, we were… we were a few young people from Arachinovo and I’ll tell you some situations. One of my friends suffered from leukemia, yes, I have to say this because that’s when it was hardest for me. I knew her ever since junior school, we were baptized togheter and we would always call each other sisters, she had a sister and I didn’t, and we would always say she was my sister. So all those teenage stuff, going out, partying, whether in “Partenie” or outside, in clubs, we were doing all that together. She was one of those friends, and time was passing by, we shared the same bed sometimes, the same food, we laughed and sang together, she was family. We had always been close, but “Partenie Zografski” brought us even closer. Because, the relations with our relatives, as time flew by, a year, two, three, four, then five, they started to fade. At first they were interested in our situation, and then they slowly forgot about us, and only we knew how we felt and, of course, we were seeking support and comfort with those in our shoes, with those from our dormitory or from some other dormitory, and…
FPD: What’s going on with this friend of yours now?
KS: Nothing’s going on now, may she rest in peace. Yes, so…
FPD: May she rest in peace.
KS: She passed away…
FPD: […] long time ago?
KS: She passed away, yes, a few years ago, I think it was 2007, yes, 2007, nearly four years ago. She had always been special. I mean, we had our little quarrels, it was a few of us, girls. We could argue, say a lot of things to each other, but it would all pass, and we were still the best friends, as I said, we went through a lot together and it was really hard for me. Now, I’m a nurse and I understood her diagnosis very well, I knew what was going to happen and it was all, how should I say it, a sad experience in life, because I realized death doesn’t choose, it takes… it takes people regardless of their age, regardless whether they’re young or old. It happened before, not only with this guy who got killed by a bomb, who was my relative, but also other people who died very young, my friends, my acquaintances from Arachinovo who were very young. It was a dark experience which affected me, my friend fought till the very end and I simply don’t know how to explain those moments, her last moments of life that we spent together, and everything we’ve done together, you know, it’s not something you can forget, and that’s an awful experience from my time in “Partenie Zografski” (tears in her eyes). Yes.
FPD: Tell me about your parents… Were they strong?
KS: Well, my parent were trying to – I’m a very emotional person, and they were trying to calm me down, to tell me that’s how it had to be, even though I knew it was going to be that way, as I said before, I knew the diagnosis well, I knew how long these people live, but I was still broken because life in the dormitory made me feel like she was a person who… I don’t know, like she was my sister.
FPD: It brought you even closer…
KS: Even closer, it brought us, and it was hard for me. She had a sister, but to this day I think of her as of my sister, a sister who passed away. My parents were trying, they didn’t want to let me know in the beginning, because they knew I wouldn’t take it well, but then they had no choice, they had to tell me, and I remember, the day of her funeral – her parents had moved here in this same neighborhood […] I was lost […] when I went to see her coffin, I thought… I didn’t want to go, I thought I was brave, but I wasn’t brave enough… Then, another bad memory… there are many bad memories from life after 2001. The death of another friend, who lived next door, Zaza was how they called him. Zaza died from the same disease as Aleksandra. With him – as I said before, there were people from Arachinovo that I had only known in passing, like […] some I had never even met, they were my age, maybe a year or two older or younger than me, doesn’t matter. “Partenie” made me get to know them better, and those I met in the dormitory turned out to be the longest lasting friendships in […] life. Zaza lived next door for years, he was two years older than me, but I could tell him anything. I have a brother and so does he, they’re the same age, but with him I could always talk about everything, maybe he was the brother I wanted to have, he could understand me. It happened many times – he and Aleksandra were being transferred blood regularly at the hospital, and often, because I knew that they were going there in the beginning of the month […] I would make him a coffee in my room and he… it didn’t matter in “Partenie Zografski” whether it was 6 am, or noon or midnight, our door was always open for our friends, they were always welcome, we were all a big family and it didn’t matter whether we would dine on a full or on an empty table, it mattered that we talked, we laughed, and often I would wait for him with breakfast prepared or I would go buy something to eat, and the other way around, he would go buy and come… I’ll tell you now about my negative experience, I was… trying to tell you before, about the students, an unpleasant event connected to Sasho, every time I think of him, that event comes in my mind. As I said, we shared the bathroom with the entire floor and… we had to wait in lines, and in the beginning, people were being considerate, it doesn’t matter that it was just us from Arachinovo at the start, there were some students too all along, but as time was passing by, people became more… some people, I don’t know who, they liked, after finishing their morning hygiene, after urinating, defecating and all that […], they wouldn’t flush the toilet. Now, that’s an image from my life in “Partenie Zografski” that I can never forget, you know, my friends from high school would come to visit, even though we were limited, living in a single room, I still needed to invite people over. How many times have I begged my mother to go clean the toilet because someone completely irresponsible found it difficult to simply flush the toilet, now, maybe I learned to live with that, but when someone else would come…when someone else would come same place new, he sure would – although it wasn’t my mess…
FPD: You felt responsible.
KS: Yes, I felt responsible for that. Now, such a mess was often to be found after, for example, after some sexual intercourse, some “leftovers” on the floor in the bathroom, now we were forced to witness all that just because we had to live there and… now, those were some dark sides and I’m still repulsed when I think of that, I think of what […] that life. In that period of my life […] And let me finish about this thing with Sasho, now, it was as it was, my parents and all the parents would try to talk about that, they would leave notes on the doors that it’s necessary to flush the toilet, that water is free, even that, yes, so complaints were coming from the cleaning ladies as well, they were disgusted too, I mean, even though they were cleaners, it wasn’t their obligation to… Complaints were reaching the manager as well, but our colleagues, as I call them, students, doesn’t matter, kept on with their bad habits. And so me and Sashe – it was during the preparation of stored food supplies for the winter, which means in the beginning of September, the exam session had already began, students started coming to the dormitory, and for about three weeks we followed everything that was going on. We used to gather in the hall on the third floor to talk, to joke around, to play cards because when our parents were resting in our rooms we had no choice where to go, and there were some benches there, we used to sit on those benches. And for a while we were keeping an eye on what was going on and we were angry because, you know, it bothered our parents and it kept going on and we thought we had to put an end to it. I remember we found out which one of the students was the irresponsible one and Zaza, he was always brilliant, always had some crazy ideas (laughs), always doing crazy stuff, and we got an idea that we should put a yogurt can filled with oil above the bathroom door, so we followed the student, waiting for him to go from… the library to the bathroom, we put two cans of yogurt above the door and when the guy went in – there were two doors, one to get inside the bathroom and one for where the toilet seat was. We saw him going in and we knew he would leave a mess, because that’s what he was always doing. We left those cans there, found a spot to hide and the guy was all soaked in yogurt and oil and I think – no, I’m sure that after that he didn’t dare to leave a mess behind him again, yes, and… I’ll say it again, I have many nice memories, but one of the bad ones was that I had to lose Sasha as well, he died the same year, in November […]
FPD: Both in one year.
KS: Yes, they both died the same year, he was two or three years older than us, he was killed by the same disease, may he, too, rest in peace. […] I even think he died on this day, November the 6th, it was around this day, I know it was right before the day of Saint Dimitri Solunski, and I want to say that it was a very bad experience for me, but I have a lot of nice memories as well, I even think young people today never have such friendships, valuable friendships, which are not based on – how should I say – material benefits or such, we had real friends, we were real friends. After that sad event, everything that happened with Sasha in 2008, in the circle of my family, I had noticed from before that… that my mother was not well, perhaps it was her climax, she was at that age, but as time was passing by, every Christmas, every Christmas Eve, you know, the same wish spoken out loud: Next year in… in a new home, next year in a new home. Years went by, all the frustrations from before, I mean, from before 2001 and after 2001, our way of life, everything had an impact on it and maybe I refused to accept it but I could see that, that something was wrong, that my mother was not the way she used to be, that she’s not the same person, I noticed she had started to forget things, to get lost in time and space. To stop paying attention to some things, unlike before, to stop doing her tasks. And I talked to my father a couple of times… with my father, we were trying to convince her to… to go see a doctor, for her own good, but my mother was stubborn and as I say she cared about her cigarettes more and she wouldn’t go see a doctor. And what happened next is something that is a very bad memory from life after 2001, life in “Partenie Zografski”, when my mother went through a nervous breakdown, her life was disrupted, but because of that, so was ours. It happened all of a sudden after the death of… of Ace and Sashe. I simply didn’t know how to react because I was twenty… it was in 2008, I was 22, a young girl who could see what was going on around her and I simply sometimes didn’t have where to hide to cry it all away, so I had to go to the bathroom so that my closest ones wouldn’t have to see me crying, in pain (tears in her eyes). And so it happened, in that room where I went through so many good and bad moments, I think I can never forget the moment when my own mother couldn’t recognize me, all those frustrations, from before, after 2001, I think it all affected her mental health, all those problems during our stay, because a while before that, my brother had hurt his leg playing football, he was immobile for a month, I think that had something to do as well, along with everything else that had been going on. That ticking bomb inside her head simply exploded and that was the day when my own mother failed to recognize me (cries). She didn’t know who I was and I didn’t know how to react, what to do, I didn’t know how to… handle the situation because a thousand thoughts went through my head, because I had worked at the neuropsychiatric section at the clinic during my school training, I had been helping people with the similar problems, and now I didn’t know how to react, I realized I might not be as strong as I once was. Maybe I wasn’t prepared for what happened, I refused to accept it. It happened and, I don’t know, luckily I had people around me to help, my brother didn’t know what to do either, and we were no kids, we were adults already, I was 23 and he was 21, and I think if it wasn’t for those people who helped me – they really helped me. I have to mention them: Eli, her brother, our neighbors, aunt Svetle, my cousin Maja, they all supported me then, my friend Viki from high school, my friend Kate. I must mention Bojan as well, he knows why. Those were the people beside me, they knew they were not supposed to bother me, because I didn’t want to talk about it at the moment. There was no need for talking, their presence was enough, it was enough that they stood beside me, they knew I had a big problem, that even though it doesn’t concern me directly, it was still my problem, because it was my mother we are talking about. They really helped me, and after that – therapy and all the rest, the situation got better, but those scenes can never be forgotten. Maybe I learned something from that negative experience, that I should always hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst, that there is no way of knowing what’ll happen tomorrow. I used to think that 2001 – I mean, Arachinovo, what happened to our house, with what was left there, that that’s… I thought, in the beginning, that it was something irreparable, a great damage… Because I still listen to my parents telling me about my mom being in her last month of pregnancy with my brother and about them building the foundations of our house, and then when my brother was born, how they were still building the house, how they worked on it their whole lives, how they earned it and then just left it there. Maybe listening to those stories and remembering of my happy childhood in that house, I thought that nothing worse could happen than losing that house, but with time, when 2001 passed, as I said, first the bomb in Arachinovo, the victims who were not my close ones, but it still affected me, and I slowly started to… think in a different direction, especially after what happened with Ace, then Sashe, then my mom, I realized that maybe – not maybe, but for certain, the material loss has no meaning. I guess people think it does, but whether they live in a palace or a cottage, whether they have five apartments or ten or it doesn’t matter, whether you have everything or nothing, I think it has no meaning, because after what happened, a while after the thing with my mom, after all the help we got from relatives, from medical staff, the therapies, after it got better, we had another shock, 8 years after the conflict in Arachinovo, they burned down our house, yes. Now, our house, as I said before, survived the military conflict without a single bullet through its walls, and then after so many years, it was set on fire, yes, and I could say, I admit that I was sorry to hear that. All that, when they said how they had been looking for my father, that they had burned our house, all those images, how my mom cried again, how she felt so sorry, no matter how much I… claim it doesn’t hurt – it does, it’s not irrelevant, but what I’m trying to say is that it didn’t hurt nearly as much as the deaths of Ace and Sashe, my mother’s breakdown… It didn’t affect me as much, although I’m not saying it didn’t hurt at all, because even though I hadn’t gone to that house in 10 years, no, 8 years – I was going to Arachinovo all the time, I could say I was one of the few girls who were not afraid to go there, after the conflict I was going there more often than my brother, even though he’s a boy, not much younger than me, I… I simply wanted to go. I still do.
FPD: Where in Arachinovo were you going?
KS: Well, I would always go to our house first, even though there was nothing there, the house was there, but it was empty, there was nothing, all that had been demolished was left like that, scratches on the windows, broken blinds, we never fixed any of that, but I still liked going there, although they were convincing me not to go, that I should remember our house the way it used to be, but I disagreed and I was going there anyway. My mother was against it the most, she feared something might happen to me. And when I would go to Arachinovo, first I’d go to my house, then a few houses further to my cousin’s, they returned to their home after the conflict, after they had spent a few years in a dormitory, they returned… to their house, they had to, because they had signed a paper for renovation and so they lost the right to stay in a dormitory and they had to go back, they had no choice. So, I would always stop by to see her. Everything that had happened, the bomb that killed my uncle, and then the few other deaths in Arachinovo, it didn’t change my mind, because I had no choice, I wanted to see my cousin, my cousin, as I said, was by my side in my hardest moments and maybe that’s why I was being optimistic and I wasn’t afraid to go to Arachinovo, that was when our house hadn’t yet been set on fire, after that they burned it down and I never went there again and still don’t want to. I didn’t want to lose the memory of our old home, because now, when I think… of that place, I think of the house before that event. And as I said, as if it wasn’t enough, people were still saying it was safe in Arachinovo, but we knew we were never going to go back there, it was more than clear, years went by, eight years in a dormitory went by and I think that was a major negative experience about living in “Partenie Zografski”, there were many others though, with all those accidents, deaths that happened in “Partenie Zografski”, like, about a year ago my friends’ grandma was killed on a zebra crossing right in front of “Partenie Zografski”, I was with her when they told her on the phone, and then some other events, with sick people and many other things, those are some bad memories I can’t get rid of. But I should say, if I make a comparison, I remember, right after 2001 I had no clothes to put on, no shirts, no pants, nothing, but then time goes by, you’ll work hard, you’ll earn, there. Maybe it’s stupid to say, but I have tons of clothes now, I have all I need, but now I know, “Partenie Zografski” and Arachinovo made me realize that money and objects are worthless if I don’t have those I love beside me, if they’re not healthy and happy, because if they’re happy, so am I and so I realized that anything material is ephemeral. What you have today can easily be lost tomorrow and you can earn back everything with time – as I said, our house was in ashes, but we have a new one now, maybe not the same one, but it’s similar to the old one, same size more or less, and I realized that the space you live in is not what matters for you to be happy, what matters are the people beside you, that all is worthless if you don’t have your loved ones by your side, everything you posses is worthless if those you love are not well or if they’re not among the living. Yes.
FPD: After this entire bad experience, and after all you’ve learned from it… for this period of time, are you still angry at someone, are you blaming anyone for 2001?
KS: Well, I don’t know, as I said, it’s been a long time, life is taking me to different paths each time, when one thing is over, another thing will pop up, whether good or bad. I find it interesting that, when I go somewhere and hear someone talking with hatred for the opposite ethnicity, I don’t know, I don’t feel hatred for the Albanians after 2001, I didn’t feel it before 2001 either, I guess I think of people as good or bad, that there are good people among them as there are good people among us, that there are always exceptions, that there are bad… bad people both among them and among us. I, I’m not angry with anyone, in the sense that I would blame certain people, no – my anger and revolt are directed strictly towards the State, I mean, the State as an institution. I think the State is the one to blame, first of all because it failed to protect us, we had to start from scratch, not just us Macedonians, but Albanians as well had to start from scratch after 2001, I mean, everything we had, we had earned it, it was ours, nobody gave it to us, even if somebody gave it to us, it was still our own and we held it dear. And then we had to start from scratch, I think we were left a century behind, yes, I think the State bears the blame and that’s what I say every time I talk about it with someone, whether someone younger or older, Macedonian or Albanian, I always find the guilt in the State, because it didn’t protect us as citizens, it would have… it would have been different if the State had protected us. It also would have been much different, I think a far lesser number of people would have lost their lives in the conflict in 2001, if the situation had been solved earlier. The whole process lasted too long, 10 years, and I think many people, filled with negative energy and stress, ended up with some bad consequences, whether they lost their lives or got serious health problems because of that life in the dormitories. No matter how – how strong you are, no matter if you were prepared for that, with time you’re losing strength and you can’t stay strong when you see you’re not moving forward, when you see no one is helping you to build a future, yes. And I think that if they wanted to, I think that if the State wanted to help, then maybe we would have had a different… a different outcome, maybe we would have stayed in Arachinovo, but I think that… I guess… that’s how it had to be, yes.
FPD: You mentioned you had a hard time in “Partenie”, during studying and the everyday life in general. After 10 years spent there, what are you proud of?
KS: What am I proud of? I’m proud because today I’m, how should I say it, a mature person with a different experience than… the rest of the citizens of this country. I wouldn’t wish for anyone to experience what I have, I wouldn’t wish that for anyone, regardless of their religion, nationality, sex or age. I’m proud that, as I said, I’m a mature person, that I’ve grown into someone who, regardless of all the bad experience, has still come to have a positive perspective on life, or as I say, no matter how hard it is for me, I can still laugh. I’m proud that I managed to realize what are the values of life, according to me at least, maybe other people think otherwise, but I’ve realized what it is that matters to me most and which are my goals in life. I’ve realized what it is that should be done and what should be avoided, I’ve grown into a person who could have easily grown differently, I could have been negative, destructive to myself and my close ones, but I think that didn’t happen, although I guess it’s up to the others to say that, I can’t talk about how I behave (laughs) with people around me. I’m proud with what I’ve achieved in education, and because I’ve helped many people around me and because I have people I can count on at any moment, to be by my side when I need them and because I know they too know they can count on me when they need me for whatever. What else am I proud of, I don’t know, I don’t know much, I don’t know what to say (laughs). I’m proud… I have to mention all those who have helped me, I’m proud of some people that I love and who were there for me in different times during those 10 years, I’ve been through a lot during those 10 years, both through happy and hard moments, so I have to mention those people because they’re very important to me. My closest ones, no need to mention them, my family, they’re always in the first place. I have to mention Maja and her family, then Eli, her brother Angelce, Kate, Ilco, Bojan, Jasmina, Ljupco, Marija, Kate, Kate, Kate from high school, Viki, Jasna and… I don’t know, Tomi, Slavce, there’s a lot of people who were there for me and still are to this day, to give me an advice, for whatever I need, I know they’re here for me. And… I don’t know, I guess after all I’m proud of myself because I didn’t become an unstable person, someone who would fall into deviant behavior, and that could have easily happened. I think many people, when faced to a problem – or even if it’s not really a problem, but it’s just in their head – turn themselves to vices, which are bad for their health, their behavior, people around them. I think I’m also proud because I have someone I love and someone who loves me. And now I have to – it just popped into my head, when I saw the drawing, I have to mention Monika, Irina and Ivona, my three little dolls, those are these little girls from the dormitory that… Two of them are now in 6th grade and the last one is in 3rd grade, they still call me aunt Kate, even though I’m not… their aunt, their relative, but anyway, I feel them closer than any relatives of mine, those are the girls who had a way to make even my worst days during those 10 years, and they still do, yes, still. I’m proud because I earned their childish love, even though they’re not my family, because children know how to love honestly, and adults… I wouldn’t comment on that (laughs loudly), I wouldn’t comment.
FPD: Since you mentioned your friends and family… Why is it that you decided to share your experience with the public?
KS: Yes, now that I mentioned them, I have to apologize if I missed someone, I must have missed someone, I hope they won’t be mad (laughs). Why did I decide this? Well, I simply wanted people to know that not everything is as it seems, that no matter how… I mean, I’m saying this from my own personal experience, that people shouldn’t be judged by the way they look, by what they have on them, because I could put my best clothes on me if I want to, but it’s my life experience that is priceless, I consider it very important. Maybe it’s mostly negative, but in that darkness I’ve experienced many shiny days as well, I learned – I devoted my energy to the good things and I thought… I think that’s why I should share this with others, so that people would understand that they shouldn’t judge people by their appearance, that they should get to know them before they dare judge them and, as I say, put them in the same basket, like…
FPD: …label them…
KS: Yes, consider them as people from a different rang or a lower class, as I was often ranged and labeled. And another reason why I thought I should share this is because, after all, life goes on, we’re all alive and well today, perhaps others can learn a lesson from our experience, perhaps they can learn – even if they’re not in the same trouble as I was – that there’s a solution for everything, that what matters is… what matters is that we’re alive and well and the rest will come to place, sooner or later. I have to say what I said during the training, as some kind of my motto, maybe a little bit religious, but I believe in God, I always have, both before and after 2001, and I think what’s yours will come sooner or later, that one must never lose hope and I believe that God may be a little late sometimes, but He never forgets, and He will reward you for your good deeds.
FPD: Just one more question: when we were getting on with the interview, you answered that you’re from Arachinovo, also that you were born there. Do you feel proud to present yourself as someone from Arachinovo?
KS: Interesting question, I must say…
FPD: And you don’t even live there anymore…
KS: Yes, interesting question, people are asking me the same, any time I meet someone new, I still present myself as being from Arachinovo, even though, as you said yourself, I no longer live there, six months ago I moved to Marino, Ilinden, I no longer live in a collective housing, I’m not an internally displaced person anymore, but my ID still has the address in Arachinovo (laughs), so maybe that answers your question, I’m still… and I’m proud to be from Arachinovo. I don’t know. Maybe someone else, someone who would listen to this or read this… would find it funny or… how should I say, absurd or stupid, but to me, it’s something to be proud of and I think I’ll keep on claiming that I’m from Arachinovo for a long time (laughs). Yes.
FPD: Is there something I forgot to ask that you would like to share?
KS: I don’t know, I think there isn’t.
FPD: Thank you.
KS: Welcome.
[1] Members of UCK (National Liberation Army)
