Lidija Cvetkova is a professor of Macedonian language and literature with more than 30 years of work experience. Employed at the Technical High School “Nace Budjoni” in Kumanovo.
The interview was recorded in 2020.
DIVNA JANKOVA: Good afternoon.
LIDIJA CVETKOVA: Good afternoon.
DJ: Could you please introduce yourself. Can you tell us where you work, something about yourself and a short description of your workplace.
LC: Thank you. I am Cvetkova Lidija, Macedonian language and literature professor for more than 30 years. I’ll be 33 next year, in 2021. For the last 20 years, I have worked in the Technical High School “Nace Bugjoni”. My first job was also in the vocational high school “Pero Nakov”. I’d spent around 10 years there. I think it was nineteen ninety something when I came to the Technical School and to this day I have uninterrupted working experience here.
DJ: Can you recall how it was in the 80s and 90s? If I understood you properly, your experience is from back then?
LC: Correct.
DJ: How was it then? What the work was like and what kind of activities did you have at school?
LC: Correct. No matter the fact that many years have passed and the time gap is huge, I will try to recall. It was the distant 1987 when I started to work. As I said, my first employment was in the school “Pero Nakov”. It was nice to be young and ardent and to be new at work. I was lucky to have older colleagues who shared a lot of their experience with me. I should mention that even then, in the “Pero Nakov” school and later in the “Nace Bugjoni”, I was working in the classes with Macedonian and Albanian students, so it means I have experience in that regard. I can say that we didn’t have any kind of problems, except the everyday problems you’re facing when you meet so many people and students. Speaking about that period, 90’s and 91 that led to the independence of Macedonia; the teaching process was going on normally.
DJ: I would love to ask you how was the collaboration with the colleagues and students from the other ethnic communities? Did you have any clubs, competitions? Do you remember how it went?
LC: Of course I do. I remember that, with fond memories, because I have chosen this profession by my own wish and I had never regretted that, even to this day. And if I were about to be born again, if I could choose, of course I would choose this. I do not find myself in any other profession, because I love kids, I love my job and I’ve always had a positive attitude towards the school, kids, towards the students. Collaboration – yes. There was collaboration and we did go on competitions. Those were good old days. And as we get older and remember those days, from these days now, maybe we are nostalgic for some passed, good times. And I can’t recall any problems. Well, the student’s temper is the way it is everywhere. There were good students in all classes, Macedonian or Albanian. We also had Roma students in classes, too. So there were mixed classes but I’ve never divided them on that basis. So, to answer your question, for me the kids were always, first of all, kids. I have observed their behavior during the classes and because Kumanovo was not and still is not some big city and so everybody knows everyone here, we would meet on the streets and they would recognize me and greet me, as they still do today. As any other profession we, the professors, have many conveniences, but also many difficulties. But we have the privilege and honor… Trust me, wherever I go in Kumanovo and out of Kumanovo there are some students who want to approach and greet me.
DJ: Let me ask you: were there any talks about some ethnic discrimination? Did it exist? Could you feel it in the air or you’ve talked and had problems of that kind?
LC: I think that it had already started in that period. It started somewhere around the 90’s. There was some turmoil although we, the professors, were in the same office. And the students were in different classes, but in the same building. Now I’m talking about “Pero Nakov” school. Later in 94-95 I went to the technical school. There, they also studied in the same building and we had one common office. It is possible that some restlessness was felt in the air, if I may say. I think it was in 91, after the proclamation of Macedonian independence, when talks about some discrimination started. And, I remember, it was the Albanian ethnicity that in its expressions had indicated they were discriminated and asked to be more involved in the Government, the police, the army… I think they also asked their language, the Albanian language to be declared as an official language, as a second official in the Republic of Macedonia.
DJ: Now, let’s recall 2001. Did your school work during 2001? What was happening? Tell us about the events in 2001 in the schools in Kumanovo as much as you can remember and recall.
LC: Well yes. I was preparing for this interview and tried to refresh my memory. The memories from 2001. Recalling it, as a professor and a human, I think it was a year that brought so many traumas for all of us. So, I do not divide them by ethnicity. I do not divide anyone. I think that the war, or the conflict, it’s still not defined what exactly was that in 2001, is rooted long time before. I am not a political analyst, but I can say this as a professor and as someone who was personally affected because first and most I am a citizen of this city and also of this country. We all were, so we couldn’t be immune to that situation. Because there was shooting, because a war conflict was about to begin, we were attacked from all sides and the teaching in one period stopped. What I remember first from 2001 is that there were the May Day holidays and I went to the school. At that time, I was deputy head teacher for a couple of years and I was managing one shift and while the other was managed by the colleague Nedzmedin Saliu. He is still working in ZIK and has the same function, me in one and he in the other shift. And I remember very well that none of the students and colleagues from the Albanian classes showed up. We didn’t know what was happening. Unfortunately, we did find out after an hour or two that there was shooting in Macedonia and something bad was happening. The war doesn’t bring any good to anyone. And the memories are still fresh. Next year it will be nearly 20 years, actually exactly 20 years since that conflict which I believe didn’t bring any good to anybody. It’s the best to resolve the things peacefully, but unfortunately, many times it comes to these situations. Our school worked during that period, but in much harder conditions and under police security. And unfortunately, the school location was and still is near the “Divo Naselje” where the population is mostly Albanian and it installed fear among the people, kids and parents. So, the Albanian students were afraid to come to class, but also the Macedonian students did and their parents were also reacting. Trust me, we had so exhausting meetings: International Community, OBSE, European Union, I think there were American representatives, NATO. We had so many meetings with all those factors who were trying to solve that conflict in a peaceful way. And the working conditions were much harder. The teaching wasn’t held in normal conditions. Once there was not teaching at all. And I remember also that we had to go to school across the Sokolana, around the whole Sokolana Park, around the whole school because of the police security.
DJ: Did you communicate with colleagues and students from other nationalities and how did that communication do? What happened to them? And which were the issues you were mostly talking about with the Macedonian students that stayed?
LC: We didn’t get in touch with the Albanian colleagues except with the deputy head teacher Nedzmedin Saliu by phone. The other colleagues didn’t come. They showed solidarity to the students, said their safety is in jeopardy and were afraid to come to the school “Nace Bugjoni”. They asked for separate buildings and separate facilities. On the other side, the Macedonian students were also afraid for their safety. So, there was an ugly atmosphere in the whole city. We were all traumatized. It was not easy for anyone. Because shooting could be heard, on television all the media were reporting about burning villages, big material damage, and unfortunately human victims which I should have mentioned first. On both sides, when it hurts – it hurts. Death is equally tragic for everybody, no matter the faith, color or nationality. In the end, it was a very painful period indeed. So, even now, when I remember… the memories are not nice; and they can’t be nice. It’s better to be forgotten, to forget all of it. But now, when we have to remember it, those times and years, especially 2001, I will say it again, the question that mostly interested me then interests me even now as a woman who reads, who is intellectual, is why and how that happened? I think all of this originates from the war in Kosovo in 1999 and many media wrote that and it was certainly so, that the Macedonia and the Macedonians were afraid that we are next after Kosovo. And really, it didn’t take much time. I also think about the refugee crisis which was felt mostly in Macedonia. Macedonia was forced to accept a large number of refugees, because we were humane to help the people who were at war. I think there were a number of 20 000 refugees that Macedonia had to receive because of the international community, but there were some data that over 360 000 refugees stayed in Macedonia. I don’t know the right number so please do not take me for granted, but I think that a large number of them stayed and even today they are in Macedonia. There were a lot of displaced people. It was something unique that I remember because I had close family members and friends, people who lived in the nearby villages and who were not safe so they had to move. There was a war going on there. There was shooting and the people were afraid for their lives, their properties and they left their homes. Some maybe sold them, I’m not sure, but some had left their homes, run and even left our country.
DJ: Did that happen in your class, where you taught, some students to go to other countries? Did students from other cities arrive? Do you remember some event with a student?
LC: I do, I do. I remember colleagues and students and from that experience I’m speaking about this. Because, I’ve told you, I have close family members, friends and neighbors who left their birth places. We could see religious facilities being burnt down all the time and some cultural-historical monuments being so much damaged that they can not be compensated. And that’s why I will get back on an event. Kumanovo is an multiethnical city and we didn’t have problems. I live in the center of the city, near “Bajram Shabani” elementary school and we didn’t have any problems, I mean when I was a kid. But, as the years went by, I already told you what year and period exactly, the tensions and the distrust were growing. Distrust between the people was constantly increasing and growing. Until yesterday we were friends and neighbors. We went to visits, at the family Saints Day; we were inviting each other on our weddings. I remember very well that I went to my neighbor’s wedding. His name was Ramadan and he had 9 kids. I grew up with them; they were often guests in our house as we were in theirs. So, I’ve never had prejudices or stereotypes. I said at the beginning that I saw the children only as children and I watched their behavior during the teaching, at the class and among them. In that time impatience showed up. Both felt some threat, they felt distrust among them and the mutual communication they had stopped. And about the event; I had a student from Tetovo. There were a few families that moved. Also our students, a couple of them moved abroad to some friends, relatives. We don’t have communication with them, but I think they are still there. Also, I have a few students who moved from Tetovo. Because, it did start there, near Tanushevci, if I’m right. People in Tetovo were especially threatened and they came to Kumanovo. I have also a few colleagues in the high schools that had moved from there with their whole families. Thereby, the state was not good. The educational process was working, but in really hard conditions.
DJ: That’s what I wanted to ask you… Really…
LC: Yes, in heavy conditions.
DJ: …it was a serious thing and…
LC: Yes, a war.
DJ: …it was very sensitive to work as a teacher at that time.
LD: That’s right.
DJ: I would like to ask you, how precisely did you do the teaching? What were the questions that the kids asked you most? How did you feel during that period when you had all that responsibility towards the children? Or something like that…
LC: I understand what your point is and what you’re asking. I have a personality of, let’s say, a peacemaker, I always want to solve the problems without conflicts, in a calm manner. And I believe that… actually, I know, not just believe it, that we, together with our family, our parents, have a huge role in the psycho-physical development and the formation of the personality of the youngsters. Because I teach in high school, I had to deal with a very sensitive age, from 14 -15 years, those are teenagers, young people who are still searching for their own path and shaping their thinking. Let me say, it was very hard. They were listening to what has been spoken at home and y=they were watching what is happening on TV. Both sides were enraged and both sides had their own truth. I told you I’ve worked in pure Macedonian classes and in classes with Albanian. I didn’t have problems like they were confronting me or argued with me, but the fear was noticeable. And, after 2001 all that unfortunately changed in our multiethnic school, despite all the efforts of the international community where we had exhausting meetings. We also were at the Development Bureau and the Ministry of Education. All of them tried to give us answers. Many of us didn’t know how to tell the kids and how to deal with it. We just wanted to live together, to study together, because we are all walking the same streets. Kumanovo is everyone’s city.
DJ: What was the role of the parents?
LC: It was crucial.
DJ: Did you communicate with the parents from the both ethnic communities?
LC: We did. That’s what I was talking about. The role of the parent is crucial. First, kids are coming from their families where they hear the talks, what is told and how it is told. So, we try to contribute and to indicate that we must accept all men, that we are all the same, and that no one, especially not the children should be manipulated and be involved in all that. They are naive and pure and they must not be manipulated. They just need to be told the truth and not to take a side. We had meetings with the parents from the Macedonian and the Albanian ethnic community, in the school, with the representatives from various fields. As I said, I think that The International Community played the key role. It was the moderator, as a non affected side, which was trying to calm down the passions for the both sides to come to some compromise and for all of us to come to some peaceful solution to the conflict. And the parents had the key role, of course. I remember the moments before we separated, before the Albanian students went to the other facility in ZIK where they still study. We are still one and only school, with the same name, but bilingual. Multiethnic but bilingual. We are still communicating with the colleagues. But let’s go back to 2001. While we studied, many students came with their parents. Therefore, they were afraid for their children and accompanied them to school and they were waiting for them after the classes, fearing for their safety. So, it was not good for both sides. It was not good.
DJ: Now let me ask you: how the school continued to work after 2001? How did the educational process continue? What was the communication between the students and teachers like? What was new in the school?
LC: We had an interruption. It needed time to stabilize and to come back to normal. The shooting stopped, the war stopped, displaced people continued to live wherever they were placed and to accommodate wherever they could. Some took care on their own and for someone, the International Community and the Government took care. And unfortunately we, as a school, got separated. From one school and one building where we used to study all together, unfortunately we had to separate with the colleagues and the students. They went to study in another building, other facility. With the colleagues we had the communication then and we still have it. We didn’t have any problems, but it needed time. It needed some time to pass by. And now, even so many years, 20 years have passed and I’ll still say and must admit it, that not all the colleagues, Macedonians and Albanians also, are sharing my opinion. I mean, there were people who resisted, who didn’t want to communicate and didn’t want to hang out. Personally, I’m speaking about my attitude and my opinion; I didn’t have those problems because I didn’t have prejudices. I, as a deputy head teacher, had an official duty to communicate and to respect and collaborate with all the colleagues, no matter the language…
DJ: Who made the decision for them to move into another building? Did you have that information?
LC: Well, I think it was the Ministry of Education. Not the Ministry, but the Government of the Republic of Macedonia, because the Ministry of Education made efforts through its representatives. We sat on the same table at the Development Bureau. Several times we had meetings with one purpose: both of the sides to speak with open cards, to talk about their problems and torments. To see what is the problem. And we understood that both the parents and the students were afraid for their own safety and that kind of compromise had to be done. Unfortunately, there was no other possible solution at that time. I know that conditions in that building were not adequate, that building was not adequate. The Ministry of Education made efforts to keep us all together in the same building, under the same roof. Our school is professional so in that time two very attractive educational profiles were added: health profession and computer technology and automation. Very attractive professions, indeed. The intention was to keep the students here. It was a big step for us to stay together. But, unfortunately we didn’t succeed. Efforts were made and it took a while, it took a long time. But unfortunately we had accidents, many students were missing from classes, we had big pressure from all around and us, the professors…
DJ: What kind of pressures?
LC: Well, like students didn’t come at school, pressures by parents. Not by others, but by the parents who constantly phoned and said: “We won’t allow the students to come. They were attacked here and there…” There were a lot of cases of attacked children and the public knew it. And I’m speaking about both Albanian and Macedonian. I’m not separating them. I’m speaking about the parents from both sides. They were all scared for their kids’ safety, which is very normal and natural. We had pressures. Nothing else. And we also wanted everything to be as it was before, because as I said, nobody got any good from the war. I repeat, nobody. The consequences are felt even to this very day. It took a long for Macedonia to bring the economy back, many lost their jobs and economy crisis had started. So, in the whole country we had only damage.
DJ: Now let’s get back. What are the conditions of studying in your school compared to 2001? What’s different now?
LC: Well, time brings its own changes, so the difference is the modernization. We have a big number of classes in our school and when I say “our school” I mean also about the classes that are taught in Albanian, because they also study Macedonian and they have Macedonian language classes 2 times per week. There are Macedonian colleagues who still work there. And here, in our building which is near Sokolana Park, the old building of our school, we have modern conditions, nice working conditions and we do a sort of cabinet teaching. Now I have to mention this virus, which disrupted the educational process, but despite that, the conditions now are much better than those in 2001. The past must stay behind us and not to be enslaved by the stereotypes and prejudices. Albanian colleagues are coming at us. We participate in mutual projects all these years. Thus, it was necessary some time had to pass and to exist a time distance. There was a distance to be honest. It didn’t happen overnight. It was a process that lasted. Time was needed for wounds to be healed and passions to be settled. At the end, the people got their rights. I think they did, because there was the Ohrid Framework Agreement and all that stuff. It’s more a political theme. But me, as a professor and a part of the educational system, I can say that the conditions are much better – improvement in the multiethnic collaboration, participation in many projects, socializing of the kids through NGO sector or through the Ministry of Education programs. In their program for all the four years, we are obligated and we have right to incorporate a part of the multiethnic existence whenever it’s needed or we feel it should. As human beings we must be humanistic and empathic, to sympathize with others. Because it is 21 century now and we do not need to care about who is from where, what language he/she speaks. Instead we should be happy in our skin, to feel free, to feel satisfied and not be slaves to the prejudices and the habits from the past and to move forward because the future rests with the young. And I think that society can be happy and rich only if it has rich, happy and satisfied youth. Because we all walk the same streets. The pain is the same for all of us. Kumanovo city is for all of us. Macedonia is for all of us. All of us who live here. This piece of land is for all of us.
DJ: So. You’ve told the challenges for education in the future, its mission. Would you like to add something in case I didn’t ask you?
LC: This topic is very wide, but here is something like a message. My personal opinion is that we all have to strive toward being the same, being people. The color of the skin is just a color of the skin, language is just a language. Who wants to understand us can learn our language and we can learn some other language. Thus, if we would like to live together and we have to, we have to understand each other. We don’t have other future. We don’t have different future. The future rests in our unity, our cohesion, collaboration. People who are educated understand that the world has no boundaries. A people’s mind should be open to accept all the differences and to understand that as much as we know more about those differences, we are richer and we only have gains from that. We won’t become poorer by respecting others’ customs, by learning others’ customs, or by visiting temples from other religions. We only enrich our intellect, our views; we expand our horizons and our knowledge. I think that the future is in unity. We can’t do anything if we take a side, opposite side. I said earlier: the war didn’t bring any good to anybody through the history. We know, we are aware, we read and it’s the best to stay that way and to be learnt further in the science of history, as a lesson, that it’s the best the issues to be solved in peace.
DJ: Thank you.
LC: I thank you, too.
