Mersiha Smailović was born in 1984 in Skopje. A humanitarian worker with many years of experience and an activist for the empowerment of Muslim women. Active in the NGO Edu Nisa. She works as a legal consultant for the company she co-founded, Nahla Consulting.
The interview was recorded in 2015.
FROSINA PANDURSKA – DRAMIKjANIN: So, you are mostly known among the public as an activist, civil rights activist and women’s rights activist. Nevertheless, I guess now you have other identities about yourself. Would you like to present yourself in general, besides of what the public already knows about you?
MERSIHA SMAILOVIKj: Well…I think and I say as a civil rights activist… The West is amazed by all those things we don’t do here, in the Balkans. They are amazed when they observe us how we have to fight for rights which anywhere else, so to say, are given by God. So, people mostly recognize me as such, so when they have any problems related to civil rights or discrimination, they address to me as someone who knows what should be done about that. I am also a mother and that is a full time job. I also work as a legal consultant in a financial bureau dealing with taxes. So, the information I get while I work 24 hours a day are from various kinds: from taxes to civil rights…to cooking healthy meals for my little one. Mostly I think that women in the Balkans know how to do multitasking and do it successfully. So, that’s how I define myself on a daily level.
FPD: Right. What about the religious identity? How do you declare yourself?
MS: Look, I am a member of the Muslim community in Macedonia which is …numerous. I am Muslim, member of the “Ehli Sunnet Vel Cemaat” branch which is the most numerous as a community in the world. The others are the Shia Muslims who are also in a big number, but in Macedonia mostly live members of this Islam branch: the righteous one, the first generation of Mohamed followers.
FPD: All right. What is the term “jihad”? Can you explain?
MS: “Jihad” literally means “struggle” This struggle can be of any sort. It could be a struggle with yourself, a struggle with your ego, a struggle with your inner urge, a struggle with the environment to be better than you are and what is mostly known as a meaning of “jihad” all over the world, it has a meaning of war. So, it means struggle, but with many connotations in different occasions. When the word “jihad” is mentioned in the holly book The Qur’an, principally it is in connotation of struggling with yourself and against your inner urge that forces you to be worse. Solemnly it is used to mean fight, weapons or some other conflicting or armed events.
FPD: I see. Through the history, Christianity, as a greater religion, and also the Islam unfortunately used the faith as excuse for fighting some real battles, mostly, let’s say for spreading the religion. What is your opinion about that?
MS: Well, Islam is an all-embracing religion. There is no single segment of our lives that Islam doesn’t embrace and gives us rules, directions and regulations how we should behave. Similar to UN (United Nations)… As an international peace organization it declares peace, but it also gives conventions about how we should behave in war. It’s the same with the Islam. Embracing all segments of our lives, it also covers that: how to behave in war situations and in which conditions the war is allowed. What we know from the history, as you said, is that never happened Muslims in the name of Islam or in the name of the faith to be guided by those urges and to do genocide, exodus, banishment or some other big war criminal acts. The wars lead by the Islam for spreading the religion were in the seventh, eighth century. From the beginning it was allowed… people had а choice to accept the Islam as regulation or to live under the Islamic regulation. If they accepted it, I mean if they agreed to be ruled by the Islam, there wouldn’t be any war. That’s so, we as Muslims, are very proud that we have а pure past, no wars behind us, no genocides, no exoduses, no terrorist attacks. The Islam is clean from all those terms.
FPD: Is the religion private or public thing?
MS: Well, you can’t deal with something publicly if you don’t feel it privately. You simply can’t put a facade and look like this if you don’t fell the religion inside you. So, Islam is something that demands to be clear with yourself, to convince yourself that the Islam is the right thing for you. You have to feel the Islam inside you. Also, Islam demands from us to fulfill it, as we, the women, should. So, I publicly manifest my belief that God is one and that everything he commands in the holly book, the Qur’an, everything he commends is for our best. But, none of that is an obstacle for you to function publicly.
FPD: Can you explain your first experience with the religion? Let’s say, when was your first… Was it developing since childhood or a bit later? Or when did the moment come? The decision for covering yourself?
MS: Well, I come from a Muslim family. My family roots are in Sandzak, Serbia where people are very proud of their identity, and they never have problems with the identity as Bosniak with Islam religion. That so, we always nurtured our identity and we were raised not to be ashamed for being Bosniaks and Muslims. Let’s say it is our holiday, or let’s say we are fasting, or that we pray five times a day. So, the religion was always a normal part of my life, an everyday thing that I’ve seen and experienced. Even though, when I was little, in primary school, I didn’t stick so much to the principles of the Islam, because it wasn’t intruded by my parents, but it was left on me to make my own decision. In high school you start to read more, to explore more about your religion, about the Islam and where do you belong, to know about what you are and who you are. That’s how I started to pray in high school five times a day regularly and at the end of my high school education I’ve decided to wear it, the headscarf. Even though, the cloth then was same as it is today, I didn’t have it, so I wore a headscarf. My parents supported me, but they said that I should pass the Law school enrolment first. They were afraid because those days there wasn’t any other covered woman at the Law faculty “Kiril and Metodij” so I was given time to think about it and see how I’m going to deal with the first year. Naturally, all those changes were hard for a freshman. So, if I had changed my look, they were afraid that it would have been even more difficult for me. So, I spent the first year without a headscarf. At the second year of my education I made a decision about it, willfully and with support from my family although they were still afraid that I could have some problems because of the way I have looked. It is not easy to be the only one at the faculty who looks like that. But I was confident about my decision, resolute in my intention, and I was sure I wouldn’t have any problems, especially not at the faculty. And I was right. So, I wear my headscarf since I was 20.
FPD: Well so. And are you facing with some stereotypes now, for real?
MS: Well, no.
FPD: At work…
MS: No. Generally speaking, our society has prejudices. I mean we can’t say it’s normal to see covered people at the faculty. It is not normal to see someone covered who speaks Macedonian fluently. It’s not normal to seeа covered woman at the court. People before… now they mostly recognize me from the media, but before that they used to talk to me like, you know: “Please go there and there”. They talk to you like you are some semi-literate person. There are some incidents when people, for example, ask you where did you finish your primary school, because they assume that’s the only education you could probably have. Even I can’t justify any prejudice, yet we should be more present in the society, media, for people to understand we are not some kind of scarecrow and that all of this is quite normal. So yes, the prejudices are present. Me, directly, have never been faced with some big discrimination act, someone to throw me out from somewhere or to forbid me something because of my look. There are some small incidents who are often in Macedonia for every citizen, so for me there isn’t any difference.
FPD: Yes. Big religions mainly propagate some traditional values. I’m interested in your opinion about where are the limits? Where up to it can be propagated or to be spoken what is properly? Here I’m mostly asking about the abortion and similar stuff.
MS: Yes. We as Muslims are convinced that the Islam is the religion for all eternity. The source of the Islam, the basic source is the Qur’an. Тhe Hadiths too. Also, one of the sources is the contemporary opinion of the scientists, which are united (incomprehensible)…as they call it today. They put together all the new insights, they explore them and of course later they give you judgments how you should behave according the Islam. And speaking about traditional values, I think that Macedonia is one wonderful example about how they should be treated. I think that we are one and only country in the world where there are 10 autochthonous people who live in Macedonia, all of them are proud of their tradition, all of them nurture their tradition and we are always glad when we see some traditional values among the young people. But, of course, there is a limit – not to impose it on others and not to offend other’s values. So, if my tradition requires to, I don’t know, to wear a hat on my head, that doesn’t mean others should mock or impose it to someone else, who is different than you. About that I agree those values to stay as they are.
FPD: What about the official communities? IRC, MOC? They also have invitations and on various gathering they do show their attitude. Should they have their part in keeping the traditional values as official institutions and individuals in the society?
MS: When we talk about the Islamic community specifically, I think it’s a clear example of one traditionally closed community where the contact, the touch, or the entrance to it is limited even for its own believers whom actually it should represent. I think that what’s wrong with the Islamic community is the way it is structured, so the people have no rights to express their discontent from the mufti or something else… What this Islamic community lacks is what we today call it “democratization” or openness to the society and its believers. It needs some modernization of the institutions which will bring the younger in and they would modernize… A website that is going to be attractive to visit, some interesting forums for the young people… So, if we speak about tradition in the communities and understand that as, let’s say, closed and conservative way, then the Islamic community is a perfect example for conservative and traditional community where modern terms and modern events come very slowly inside and near them. I think it’s the same with the Macedonian Orthodox Church, by following the media and the comments from the younger people. I mean, a hero among the young is Pimen or the metropolitan Pimen who has Facebook, who communicates on the social media with the believers and also with the atheists and also with us, the Muslims. While in the Islamic community there is no such a man who would be modern and more accessible to us, the young people and who would use the social media because we spend most of our time there.
FPD: Can we now speak a bit about the role of the religious communities and the peace? So…what’s your opinion, how much do the MOC and IRC, that we have already mentioned, were up to this role? I mean, do they have their contribution to the peace? Mostly here I’m talking about the conflict in 2001 and other public events that had violence…
MS: Well then, the Balkan as you said in 2001, ’99, ’91 year… We are constantly in some conflicts and I think that Balkan people are one of those who don’t have a generation that didn’t confront some conflict. For you to have an impact in peace or in war, first you have to have an impact on your believers, and our communities don’t quite have it. They don’t have an influence on the believers to create their public opinion or to guide them toward some opinion. Above all, that’s what they don’t have. Me, as a Muslim, I’m going to talk about the IRC. I think they don’t have any key role in instigation of some riot or peace. But in general they do have that role. I would take Bosnia as an example, because as I said, my nationality is Bosniak and my motherland is Bosnia, where during the war in ’91 there is no single Christian or Catholic object that has been tumbled down because the Muslim superiors called not to destroy religious buildings from other religions, because the Islam forbids that. So, in the role to create a peace in Bosnia, religious communities like IRC made a key role in what we are so proud today, that not a single church or catholic object, not a single synagogue was destroyed by the Bosnian military forces. The Islamic community is having better influence and it’s more open towards the society, while in Macedonia it’s a bit nationalistic and very often it comes out with support for the national interests of a specific nationality. Then so, I think that it can influence in those segments, it can evoke for conciliation of the national emotions, national urges, but I’m not sure that it has a part in propagating a peace or in preventing some conflicts.
FPD: Where were you in 2001? I guess you were at…
MS: At high school.
FPD: …at high school…
MS: Fourth year. The biggest problem was that we couldn’t go…we had to go across Macedonia and not across Europe (she’s laughing). So, I was here in Macedonia, at the “Arsenij Jovkov” high school.
FPD: Do you remember the conflict?
MS: Yes.
FPD: How did you experience it?
MS: Yes. I remember it because I live in Butel which is very close to Ljuboten so…and close to the police station. We were surrounded by police cars all the time, the police station was all surrounded by military barricades and you know in Ljuboten there were very often a bombshell which we could hear and the most difficult moment was when young…women, children and the older people from Ljuboten, from Albanian nationality, were pulled out from the village and some of our fellow citizens made a corridor where they used to harass them while passing through. Even though I was 18 I remember it very well and it feels devastating. In Skopje, the news did their own so the conflict wasn’t felt that much. But as I said, in Butel it had been felt much more because of its proximity to Ljuboten.
FPD: Do you remember some important actions, whether for praise or criticism, done back then individually by some religious people like priest or theologian or officially by the religious community?
MS: In the summer of 2001 we went to Sandzak, Serbia for one month and one month we were in Bosnia where my sister was studying for her entrance exam at the faculty and we went there to escape from what was happening in Macedonia. There we heard the appeals from the Bosnian superiors that it mustn’t be allowed in Macedonia to happen what had happened to Bosnia and that we must sit down and think with a cold head and reveal the source of the conflict. I can’t recall on some superiors from Macedonia then. As I’ve already said, our community is very much nationally oriented. It must have been some religious person who had a crucial role in Macedonia, but I don’t remember on someone specific.
FPD: Thus. You’ve mentioned the social media. I guess there are forums and other ways to exchange opinions and attitudes about the religion. How easy it is for you and how many people you can speak openly about these questions with?
MS: Firstly, I can speak only with people who want to listen. I mean with people who like to ask questions and who are interested, who have no prejudices and have understanding and can widen their horizons of their thinking. On the other hand, I can’t communicate with people who judge from the very start, who are mocking you, and from the beginning are closed for every kind of diversities in their surroundings.
FPD: Can you share some example with us? Let’s say a positive one.
MS: Well, there are many positive examples. My whole education at the Law faculty was full of positive examples because I was an interesting instance for… I was covered up so my professors often wondered how I would express myself then. And when I would start to speak Macedonian they were surprised. Once we had a very hard exam, where I managed to pull a seven and even… It was a very important exam, but very hard. We were 300 students in the amphitheatre during the lectures, I was always sorry that the professors could not recognize you in that entire crowd. And it was interesting when the professor said to me: ,,A-ha, seven? But you were regular on the lectures. Here, I’ll give you an eight”. And I asked him: ,,Well, how do you know that? Do you have any lists?” and he said: ,,Well you are easy to be spotted” (she’s laughing). My friends were joking: ,,We will start to wear headscarves if it means presence…”. So there are many positive examples. I couldn’t choose one specific. Of course there were some negative examples too, but the positive were predominant… or simply you want to forget the negative ones and focus on the positive and nice things.
FPD: What do you think, is the interreligious tolerance a basis for a peaceful society?
MS: I think it is a part of it. Interreligious tolerance is very important and especially if you live in a time of various religions it is a very important segment. We also have many citizens who are not religiously determined so it is not a crucial, but surely it’s very important moment. Especially here, in the Balkans, as an unstable area, where it’s easy to play with the religious and the national emotions of the people, this is a very important segment to work on and it should be spoken and proclaimed to respect everyone’s religious belief. It’s not crucial…
FPD: In Macedonia…
MS: Yes. The other moment is nationality. In Macedonia, where we have 8 – 9 religions on one place and there are people who are not religiously determined, so we should have interreligious tolerance, international tolerance and tolerance to all the diversities who live here if we want to have a peaceful society.
FPD: Again a question about conflicts. Recently in Kumanovo occurred a conflict which lasted for day or two. Many things are assumed, many things were said and pointed out for the public: politics, criminal and so on, but it’s a fact it was a big conflict. It’s a fact that some families were left with long lasting traumas.
MS: Yes.
FPD: So… How did you experience that event?
MS: What happened in Kumanovo is really tragic, especially at this time of the mass-media where you are following the situation in Kumanovo for 24 hours. You recall on the wars you’ve been through and it’s really hard and undesirable. Especially if you have a child and you don’t want him to grow in war condition. About what happened in Kumanovo…it indicated that something really, really terrible was going to happen. But, on the other hand, those who followed the political situation in Macedonia were very loud and clear with a reasonable thinking which really impressed me, that it’s not an attack, it’s not some kind of gang, but simply it’s about defocusing the people and the police officers victims got the worst of it, also the wounded and the citizens, children who would live among conflicts. So, I’m one of those who think that this was an attempt to defocus the people from the political problems in Macedonia and it cost us a lot. So, let’s not think about the current political situation and look out for something we… We did have an opportunity to hear the “bombs” and not to think about the criminal and we started to think that someone from aside will come to attack us and we felt afraid about how safe are our borders and how safe are we, will someone just come in tomorrow and move into your house, or who knows what’s happening in that empty house next to you…So, I do think we should speak more about this conflict and to speak about what’s happening in Kumanovo and I think people should stand up upright and say we will never allow this kind of conflicts to happen to us and that we would go through them together. As it did happen, which is very interesting for me, the citizens of Kumanovo did not accuse between each other: “We, you, they”, but they went out on the streets together, side by side, hugging and said: We will never allow 2001 to happen again. We are united, confident in what we are; we know nobody will mess up with our coexistence which in 2001 cost us a lot”. So then, we went through a very good battle and what happened in Kumanovo still… Although, it’s very sad about the victims who died, for the destroyed houses, it’s sad for the children who are now traumatized. But, we did send the message to the politicians and to the international public that we won’t be a test for the international peace forces to come in Macedonia and exercise their peace missions on us and that we are now mature to live together in a multi-cultural country.
FPD: All right. Does the ethnic overpower the religious identity in Macedonia or it’s the opposite?
MS: Well, it depends on the ethnos we are talking about. I mean, ethnic identity is of course before the religious, because you can choose and change the religion. You can be a Muslim or Christian today and tomorrow you can decide you won’t be anymore. While, ethnicity can’t be changed like that. You were born as Macedonian and you will die as Macedonian. You were born Bosniak and you will die as Bosniak. Or as Albanian. But still, I think they both should be mixed together, especially here. If we talk about the Bosniaks, the Bosniak identity means you are Muslims, you don’t have Bosniaks Christians, all Bosniaks are Muslims. Among the Albanians we have Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims. Among the Bosniaks, if you are a Bosniak then you are Muslim.
FPD: In which direction do the big religions move these days? I mean, in a time of globalization, when we are bombarded with violence and stuff, unfortunately. Where do you see the role of the religion in the future?
MS: Isn’t so, the pope last year said that the Muslims are the most numerous collective in the world. How many are we? A billion. There are many. We are helpless, very weak and we are much under the other religions. So for me, us, growing in the most numerous community in the world, is not reason for optimism, desire or happiness that I’m a part of the most numerous religion, because the religions need to be reconstructed and they have many problems of theirs. The religions need to work and to be aware of the economic situation and the education of its people. We in Europe are facing with…normal society, normal practicing of the religion, while in Asia or Africa we see how the religion is misused for submission of the believers, easier manipulation with the believers or because the religious leaders want to vilify the religion for their own interests. We did have a question about the circumcision of the women in Africa where the world was revolted that the Islam is the one who calls for women’s circumcision even though… In Islam, it is forbidden, this kind of mutilation, but the religious leaders for their own interests or for some easier control of the mass in Africa, they call out it’s a part of the Islam. And it’s very easy to call and manipulate an illiterate mass of people, who are not educated and you’re doing it with no arguments at all. Then we have and until recently we did have it in Tunisia, where the religious rituals were forbidden. So, in Tunisia it was forbidden to wear the headscarf before the revolution. The religious rights and freedom were quite limited in Egypt, too. It means that you have people who are Muslims only by name and in Asia or Africa they can’t vacate. So then, Islam is not just an identity as a name and family name. Islam must be lived because only then we can see it in reality and we will see what does it mean to be a good Muslim and the world then will see the difference with a billion Muslims who are going to be good citizens in the society. Like this, we are only showed as we are dirty and terrorists, who abuse the children and women, we are not educated, Taliban, I mean Al-Qaeda, ISIS… There is always someone from the Muslim circles who is the villain to vilify a whole religion, a one milliard mass of people. So then, if the religions were as they should, as by the book and if they do everything by the rules, then we would have what we’ve had in Andalusia, in Islamic Spain. Who doesn’t read… I mean those who read the history know where the education bloomed. The first and the oldest university in the world was in Egypt and many Muslims were in Sorbonne…the biggest libraries were Muslim libraries and the pope in Islamic Spain was afraid of the influence of the education the Muslims had. And so, when we read what actually the Islam represented and what kind of bloom it had been to the world, then we would realize what benefit we have from the most numerous religion and from the one billion Muslims around the world and that will make a big difference to the world. A positive difference indeed.
FPD: Lately, you’re very active and you’re doing a humane work and help people that escaped from a war or conflict. Could you now speak a little about the feelings and the emotions in your work because as you’ve already said, you have very gross view on everything? You’ve been included in some humanitarian action before, but now all of it is happening in our yard. We are all “tortured” and very emotional about what we see…
MS: Yes… When they ask me why I am so worried about what’s happening in Macedonia… I mean…in 2011 I was in Somalia to deliver humanitarian aid, collected from the people in Macedonia and intended for the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world that was in Somalia. Then we organized humanitarian aid for Palestine, for Syria, for Myanmar (former Burmese), for the floods in Bosnia and in Serbia, for the not educated children in… the ruined schools in Radovish and its surrounding. Simply, globally, you have so many people who need help, who need basic food products and now you have the same people transitioning through Macedonia and you can’t do anything to help them. So, I don’t need to go to Somalia, I have Somalia here in Macedonia. I have Syria in Macedonia. I have Palestine in Macedonia. What is happening to Macedonia now is something that forced us to step outside our homes and get united. You know, the net of people who want to help the migrants walking through Macedonia is very big. I can’t say… I can’t tell you the right number of phone calls we’re getting every day from the people who are worried about them, who passed across Greece and saw them on the streets: little children, mothers with babies, old men…they care so much and want to help. What’s happening now in Macedonia is something that reminds us of what was happening in Bosnia. Macedonians recollect of the Аеgeаn Macedonia as the migrants come from Greece and what happened to Aegean people then now is happening again… That number of women, children, people running and carrying from home only having the belongings on themselves… It’s a real tragic refugee crisis in which Macedonia is not involved, but found itself into it. But Macedonia did very badly and again we were surprised by the refugee crisis even though Greece and Turkey announced it’s about to happen at spring. We confronted it totally unprepared as a country. The institutions, the International organizations and those big organizations that had the mandate to care for the migrants didn’t even predict what’s happening now and completely failed. That’s why the civil society organizations and initiations took the job in their hands. Probably we are used to everything in Macedonia to be done thanks to the civil initiatives. Big changes are done by the civil initiations, so we have around a hundred men who are active on the field, five stations with 10, 20 volunteers from the local communities who welcome the migrants, help them, give them food, meals, medical help and basic medic services, technical support, because people sell them old Chinese bicycles, so they need to be fixed. So, now we see how, if people take the power and the ability in their hands, they manage the work better than the institutions. But, what is happening can only be fixed by the institutions and we are tired as activists and as citizens… So, for the first time in life you’re helping them, but you don’t feel any satisfaction… Because you’ll give someone water and then let him go further 10 more days across Macedonia, in these temperatures, with small children. They need more now, but you can’t give them more. It was devastating yesterday when they asked us, they asked our activists in Demir Kapija: “Why do you hate us?” That means they see you through your institutions who on the railroads are pointing rifles to get them out off the trains. And you try to explain that no, those are the institutions, but the citizens are not like them and that we want to help them. Our stations today put posters: ”We love refugees”,We love you all”… We try to speak to them, to tell them that we’ve been through other refugee crisis but… I think we couldn’t manage to be a credit to Macedonia. Besides the hospitality of the Macedonian people which always have been their virtue, the migrants left Macedonia with a very bad opinion about it, because of the institutions and some organizations that failed to cope with the situation. And the migrants are the biggest tourists (she laughs).
FPD: Let’s hope this will end soon.
MS: I hope so. I really want this to end as soon as possible.
FPD: And for the end, is it possible to have peace without religion, I mean faith?
MS: Peace without religion? Well, the wars are not about the religion. So, at least if I speak about me, as a Muslim and the Islam, our greet means ,,peace” and we say it for 50 times a day: “May peace be with you” so you constantly send that message for peace. You don’t need any billboards, commercials, simply you are sending the message. When you repeat the same word: peace, peace, peace…every day in your life and it comes to a Muslim as a mantra to say: peace, peace, peace…may be with you. That’s the meaning of As-salamu Alaykum — “May the peace be with you”, “May the God’s peace be with you”. I think I couldn’t imagine my life without the faith because it makes you a better person, the faith is the one that guides you when the anger and the ego are overpowering you. The faith brings you back, makes you calm and gives you hope and faith that the things will be resolved, they have to be resolved and you have to be a part of creating of that peace. I would advise those who have prejudices about Islam to read about Islam and to talk with Muslims who know their religion and they will see that Islam actually means peace, peace on Earth, peace inside you, peace and coexistence with all the people around us.
FPD: Where do you find your peace…every day?
MS: Oh. I don’t have much peace each single day (she’s laughing). My work and my life are very dynamic. I’m constantly in position of conflicts. Today I was telling my colleagues how conflicting my day was and I said: Now I’m going to talk about peace (she’s laughing). And there were so many conflicts I faced today, but anyway I find my peace in what I’m doing, the point of what I’m doing. If it’s about the job I’m trying to do as much professional as I can not to involve emotions in it. If it’s in the humanitarian moment, I find my peace in the smile I get from the small kids when I give them a chocolate bar. When I’m nervous, I find my peace in my daughter, my family, my husband and in family reunions. So, I always, in every holy moment, I try to find the best of it and even though my nature is very active I do manage to find my peace, no matter if I need to search a bit more, at the end I always know where to find it when I need it.
FPD: Thank you very much.
MS: Thank you.
