Both groups were defending their own interests, and the Roma people were put in the middle.
AKIF KARIMAN: Hello, I’m Akif and as you know we’ve come here today to record an interview about your experience with the events before, during and after 2001, about your view on what happened in 2001 and what you expect from the future. First of all, I’d like to ask you where did you live before 2001?
NN: Hello. I would answer your first question. I lived in the center of Gostivar before 2001.
AK: Right. Can you tell us who you are?
NN: I’m NN from Gostivar.
AK: What do you do?
NN: I’m unemployed.
AK: OK. Were you satisfied with your life and the coexistence between the various communities before 2001?
NN: About my life, actually, about the coexistence with my fellow countrymen from Macedonian, Albanian, Turkish nationality in the city of Gostivar up until 2001 I can proudly say that I was a very rich man. Not rich with money, not in the material sense, but rich with friends, comrades and acquaintances from all these ethnic groups that live in the city of Gostivar.
AK: Would you say that some of the communities were being discriminated by the others?
NN: I can declare without a second thought, regardless of who this information will reach, that up until 2001 I personally considered the city of Gostivar the safest city in the Balkans, for living and for coexistence.
AK: What’s your mother tongue?
NN: My mother tongue is Macedonian.
AK: You finished your education in your mother tongue?
NN: I educated myself in Macedonian.
AK: Were you facing any problems during your schooling?
NN: During my schooling, both in junior and in high school, I never had any serious problems regarding interethnic relations.
AK: Right. Did you expect, I mean, did you think that something like the thing that happened in 2001 could happen?
NN: What happened then, which is now in the distant past – not so distant, but still, it’s been 11 years now – I don’t think that anybody expected it to happen. But it did.
AK: When did you realize that we were at war?
NN: At war?
AK: Or should we call it a ‘conflict’, because the opinions on whether it was a war or a conflict are divided.
NN: I will call it a military… a military conflict, or conflict between personal interests. Why do I dare call it with that name? Because in that 2001 the postman came to our door and he brought us a call for a military service for my brother, my younger brother.
AK: And?
NN: Then my now late mother, showed great disappointment after we read the call because at the time we were all unemployed, my younger brother, my other brother, my sister-in-law, my wife, myself. We were all… jobless, and all we were receiving were those calls. I took the letter in my pocket and in order to calm my mother down I went to… to the military section of the building of the municipality in… in Gostivar.
AK: And what happened?
NN: I took out the paper in front of all who were present in the office, I tore it down and I said: “Delete my brother’s name from your list, and I will take his place for this service that you summon us for.” I said that without knowing that I was to become a participant, a defender of the sovereignty and integrity of the Republic of Macedonia. Without knowing who will I fight against, without even knowing that a military conflict was about to take place in Macedonia.
AK: Right. So you were an active participant in the conflict?
NN: Exactly. I declare that by free will, consciously. Unfortunately, I was a participant in the first group of the defenders. We were taken for military training in Erebino…
AK: And?
NN: …around Tetovo. From there we were taken to… to the frontline in the village Lavce, near Tetovo.
AK: Right. Can you tell us what was going on in these places? Can you share some impressions, some moments with us?
NN: Unfortunately – I start all my sentences with this word. From those 36 days, we passed 30 days inside the trenches. I wouldn’t know what specific moment I could share, but I could say that there was a comradely spirit among the… among the defenders from… from our platoon. I would say that these acquaintances will remain in my memory till the rest of my life, in a good sense.
AK: So, friendships. Were there people from all the ethnic communities among the defenders or…?
NN: There were… in numbers I would… I would say there were… Two… Out of 215 members of our group, 53 were Roma, the rest were Macedonian, and there were two… one Turk and one… one Albanian, if I remember well.
AK: Right. Do you think that other ethnic groups were fighting on the side of NLA (National Liberation Army), aside from the Albanians?
NN: Yes. I know for a fact that there was a large number of Roma population fighting for the other side as well.
AK: How did that make you feel, people from the same ethnicity fighting against each other?
NN: Regarding that question, I would say the following: Both groups were defending their own interests, and the Roma people were put in the middle.
AK: Right. Do you blame somebody because of that?
NN: No, I don’t… I don’t feel I have the right to… to blame anyone about that. I blame myself above all for taking part in… in these games of… of particular interests.
AK: Right. Do you think it was necessary for this to happen?
NN: I don’t feel I have the ability to… to answer… this question, because it happened and nobody… nobody can take it back or erase it. What’s done is done; both sides got what they were demanding for.
AK: Right. Were you afraid in those times?
NN: I’m not a fearful person by nature and I wouldn’t say that I… was afraid.
AK: Did you communicate…
NN: I feared for… for my family, for… for my honest friends and my relatives.
AK: Did you communicate with them?
NN: No. During that period I didn’t have contact with any of them.
AK: They must have been terrified for your safety?
NN: I never asked them about that, nor do I want to know. It’s all because I don’t want to bring them back their bad memories.
AK: Right. Did they have any idea at all about where you were?
NN: I think no one from my family knew where I was. At least not in the beginning… during the first 10 or 20 days. After that, I guess they started realizing, because during… during those first 10-15 days of my transfer to the frontline… it started to… the war had spread in Tetovo and in other parts of Macedonia.
AK: Do you suffer from any consequences from the conflict?
NN: I hope the consequences are now erased, from my head I mean, and in a physical sense, I would say that you can’t avoid certain consequences. Nothing is the same as before. Nothing is like before 2001.
AK: Right. Do you think it could have all been different? The demanding of rights?
NN: Maybe it could have, maybe it should have, but it is what it is. I think even Europe or NATO were not able to change that situation back then. And when it comes to us Roma people, I will use the right to… to say that we’re nobody. We exist solely for the fulfillment of somebody else’s rights. No matter which side we were going to take, we would still be equally condemned. That’s my opinion.
AK: Ok then, let’s get to the last set of questions, about life after 2001. What did you gain and lose after the conflict?
NN: Concerning this question I could… write a whole book about it and I still hesitate whether I should do it. If someone thinks he gained something, he’s just fooling himself with some petty compensation in money or stuff like that. Me, personally, I lost a lot. What did I lose? I lost all my Albanian friends I had before 2001.
AK: How did you…
NN: It was a big loss in that sense and I think it will be very hard to get back to the mutual trust we had before.
AK: Did your Albanian friends know that you were fighting on the side of the defenders?
NN: Some of my Albanian friends from the past still find excuses to blame me because I was a defender of the Republic of Macedonia.
AK: And how does that make you feel?
NN: I wouldn’t like to comment on that.
AK: Alright.
NN: I will talk about that later.
AK: Tell me, what is your opinion on the coexistence today?
NN: Fortunately, things are getting better on that field. Time… time is doing its own and it’s slowly healing the old wounds, at least for those who were honest and truthful. Time is slowly taking us back to normal.
AK: Right. And your opinion on the Framework Agreement?
NN: By answering this question, I could say many true things about what is going on after 2001. The Framework Agreement is a good agreement for the rights of the Albanians in Republic of Macedonia. But when it comes to the Roma population, I can only tell you one example. I went with a group of my fellow citizens to the office of the mayor of Gostivar to demand in the name of… of the Roma community, population in Gostivar, a few employments. He took us in. “Good afternoon.” – “Good afternoon.” – “What do you want?” – “Mister Mayor, aren’t there some jobs for us according to the Framework Agreement?” Do you know what he said to us?
AK: What?
NN: “The Framework Agreement is for us, the Albanians. If you want a Framework Agreement for yourselves, arm yourselves and fight for it.”
AK: That sounds interesting. What did you do?
NN: What could we do? We left the room like… I can’t find words for that. We left the office and I guess after the mayor’s response it seemed like the Roma in Gostivar got back to reality, they faced the actual circumstances of their lives…
AK: …lives. And how did…
NN: …in this country.
AK: And how did they imagine their lives before that? Were they disillusioned?
NN: Well, before that… before that we may have been neglected as well, but not as much as we are now, unfortunately. Until 2001, and much earlier, there were many Roma in Gostivar who were employed as cleaners, workers, metal workers in… in all the factories in Gostivar which were still working properly. Unfortunately, that number decreased significantly after the Framework Agreement and what’s happening today is we have maybe a dozen employed thanks to their party loyalty and that shows the real picture of the Roma population in the interethnic coexistence in Gostivar and in Macedonia.
AK: So, as far as I understood, you were trying to say that the life of the Roma people has deteriorated after 2001?
NN: No matter how people will understand me, for me life before 2001 was much better than now.
AK: Right. Is there anything you fear for the future? Or do you have any hopes for what’s to come?
NN: About this question, I would like to tell you a story before we finish. It’s a tragicomical example of a fellow citizen from the Roma population and what he experienced after 2001. This fellow citizen goes for a visit in Kicevo. At that time, at the green market in Kicevo, someone stole something from somebody. The police took the streets, and they find this… this guy from Gostivar. They take him to the station, to the police station. The policeman on duty takes him to the office for… for questioning.
AK: And?
NN: He asks him: “Why have you come to steal from Gostivar to Kicevo?” The guy from Gostivar says to the policeman, because his name was tagged, he says to him: “Dragan, please don’t!” He said: “I’m not a thief or a robber, I served two years as a defender in Gostivar in the army reserve.”
AK: And?
NN: Do you know what the cop did after he heard that? He opened the door and called for his Albanian colleague, I don’t know his name, and said: “Come here, I got you a Roma defender.”
AK: Oh, God…
NN: He left him in his hands. They beat him so hard that he couldn’t stand on his feet for months, my fellow citizen, because of that.
AK: Is that so…
NN: I think this… this example shows you why I’m so disappointed from all that’s been going on from 2001 till this day. The only good thing I can count on is that the tensions got lower and I hope that the coexistence in Gostivar will become better.
AK: Right. Is there anything else you would like to add that I didn’t ask you?
NN: Well, there’s one more thing I’d like to say. This is what I would like to say: God forbids 2001 to happen again.
AK: Why?
NN: Because I wouldn’t want any of my fellow citizens to take part in somebody’s dirty games which only serve for particular personal interests, because I don’t want the Roma people to be used as experimental mice. From either of the sides. Because I want to live in unity with the Albanians, the Turks, the Muslim Macedonians, and especially with the Macedonian citizens.
AK: Right. OK then, thank you for your time and for your honest responses and I wish you all the best for your future.
NN: Thank you too. […] will contribute for a better life of the Roma population everywhere in Macedonia.
AK: Thank you.
