Snežana Lupevska Sozen was born in 1973 in Skopje. A journalist with 30 years of experience. She worked at A1 TV and then at other television stations in various positions, including editor-in-chief at TV Telma. Her creation is the show “KOD”. She is the recipient of several awards in the field of investigative journalism. In 2001 she was captured in the village of Tanushevtsi by armed units of NLA. She worked as a journalist throughout the war in 2001.
The interview was recorded in 2016.
FROSINA PANDURSKA-DRAMIKJANIN: First I would like to thank you for accepting this invitation to talk about 2001 and the events in Macedonia of that time. To start, couldyou please introduce yourself.
SNEZANA LUPEVSKA-SOZEN: I am Snezana Lupevska-Sozen – a journalist.
FPD: You have many years’ experience as a television journalist and among the audience you were mostly mentioned as, let’s say, the journalist who was kidnapped at the start of the 2001 In Tanushevci. Would you like to speak about that, to recall on that unpleasant event?
SLS: Yes, you know, for many years it stalked me that I was the journalist that provoked the war or the conflict. Many years have passed, but I still recall on that event every 16th of February as some kind of anniversary. Probably it will stay in my memories forever because it was in some way a historic moment for our country and for me, professionally and privately. The story is already published and well known, but here it is for those who will hear it for a first time: we had some information that something was going on at the Kosovo border. We didn’t know for sure if it was in Kumanovo region or in some part of Tanushevci. Still, we decided to go in Tanushevci because the border there is so much porous and cut out that if there weren’t people who are fighting or want to fight you could find some smugglers. However, we didn’t expect uniformed men with automatics to welcome us, but they did, at the entrance of the village. They had the KLA logo on them and they were holding automatic weapons. There they stopped us together with some of the peasants, took us into the village, searched us and took off our mobile phones, cameras and stuff. They were asking us who we were and what we want. Normally, with guns on our heads and things we have seen in movie scenes. But I must say there wasn’t any violence. The commander introduced to us – Jesair Shakjiri Hodza. He told us that they have already come on the border to fight for the Albanian rights. We didn’t manage to make a television interview because the cameras were taken off, but we talked and apart from a man that was with us, he was an Albanian that we encountered on the road and we just wanted to drop him off… However, after a while they let us go as a television crew , but we didn’t have any TV equipment or a recorded tape, in that time. But we discussed with a man, Albanian who we took off from the road and wanted to give him a lift. Next, we report the event in the first police station we saw and I always say ” I don’t know what was worse – the kidnapping in the village or the all day long interrogation from the police and the officials. Why it had to be us the ones with the idea to go to that village?”.
FPD: But did you, in the same village, at the same moment, think that the armed men wanted the information to be transmitted? Was it even discussed? They indeed have taken your camera but were there any threats?
SLS: When we started the conversation, some of them knew Macedonian. Some of them were from Kosovo which was known by their uniforms and the KLA-MB emblems, for the KLA members in Preshevo and Bujanovac. But, when they asked us: “What are you doing here?” – we said: “We came to make a newspaper report about the village”. Normally we didn’t say: “We are here for you, to see if you’re here and to meet you” – but we said that there are very bad conditions in those border villages, roads and stuff. “Yes” they said. “That’s right, these villages are cut out. That is one of the reasons why we are here”. Although, they said they are not satisfied with the implemented politics for the Albanians in Macedonia, and they said, unsatisfied by the politics they came over there to start а war for the Albanian rights. They explained the KLA emblem to me and the main man Dzezo as we called him during the whole war, explained to me their motives why they were there and didn’t stop us to tell something like that. On the contrary, I had an impression they wanted us to tell what they think and, of course, I remembered what they told me.
We said the same thing at the police, but there was: “How did you know?” “Why did you go there?” and similar. And considering that they kept us there till almost the beginning of the news, the news at “A1” were at 7, 19 o’clock, and we were at the police till almost 6, 18:30h , I almost rаn into the studio to narrate that whole situation to public. No matter how it sounds…
FPD: It was in live? In the news?
SLS: It was a live interview. The editor did the interview with me. I said that I and the cameraman Risto Mishev and one other colleague Nehru Hodza, went there and we saw what we saw. But, what is the most interesting is that after the interview, the Minister of the Interior at that time Ljube Boshkovski, The Security Council and especially the Ministry of Defense have denied all my statements. They said it’s not true, that I’m making it up and that nothing was going on at the border. Everything is peaceful and everything is alright. That’s why, me as a television journalist I felt sorry the most for not having any photo of that moment, to prove I’m telling the truth. But, unfortunately it did prove the same day and the day after. The same day police tried to go in the village and the shooting started. The next day already there has been the first victim as a result of the conflict between the border police or army and the KLA members in the village. To that, unfortunately all my statements turned out to be correct.
FPD: So, the denial existed only on that day, practically that night, because the next morning the action already occurred?
SLS: Yes, practically that night. So the statement of the Defence was that the army is out there controlling the border, that what the crew saw it’s not like that and sent an official statement. So did the MIA. The denial that Macedonia was at safety risk continued. Although there was an incident they treated it like a border incident. In the meantime I even remember the statement of Dosta Dimovska and other officials at that time, when they had a meeting with the Safety Council that everything is under control. The most amazing was the fact that the Macedonian police, army or the Macedonian Government didn’t inform that our border was occupied, that we had soldiers out there, that for days nobody from the police or the army wasn’t allowed to enter the village, that at the time it was, let’s call it “KLA territory”. They didn’t want to talk about it at all, for a long time I may say, until the second incident happened, I think in March, when one of the vehicles, I think from the police or the army stepped on a mine while driving on the road to Tanushevci. And when the first victims occurred, then the public and the politicians, everyone became aware that it was very, very serious.
FPD: After this event, did the atmosphere itself carry you away or you just wanted to move away, especially because the officials of the country denied your statement? I assume there was a lot of pressure privately and professionally.
SLS: Well I think… Well there was some pressure, but the mere fact that someone denies you and you are convinced in the story and you know what’s happening forced me to be a journalist who was trying to go in Tanushevci over and over again. And it did happen. After publishing my story, the same was published in “New York Times”, “Guardian” and other worldwide media. People from “New York Times” came and, the conflict still wasn’t officially started, it was a week, maybe, after the publishing of my first story, I went again to Tanushevci together with them a week before the conflict officially started. And even though it was snowy and we got stuck we somehow reached the sentry, but they didn’t let us in this time. They asked who we are and why are we going there? They didn’t want to let us inside the village. That showed to us that the situation is not under control, the NLA was still there and the army was at the other side. And again we got arrested. I had another experience in the police station, I think it was Miladinovce…
FPD: Mirkovce.
SLS: Mirkovce was the village. We went through the interrogation process once again which was easier this time because the journalists were Americans and the American embassy intervened for its citizens not to maltreat us and not to interrogate us all day long. I saw that once again no measures were taken and it forced me to investigate further what’s happening and what is most important – to go on a field, not to quit but to follow the events from nearby and on the field to be as close as I can.
FPD: Did you have any help or support from the editorial stuff and the editors? After all, those fields are stressful?
SLS: Well, the support was in their trust in me and that is very important in these situations. You know, whoever politician dared to call them and make a pressure, the editors obviously didn’t obey because they left everything on my judgement and trusted me and that means a lot to me. I really don’t know if that could happen these days judging by the pressure the media are exposed on. The second thing was that Risto Mishev as a cameraman and Nehru Hodza as a cameraman chief had total understanding for journalist’s need for camera. It means that my colleague Risto was always with me. I can say that Risto was the man next to me in all those crisis months and he did his best to tape everything we were observing. That’s why “A1” had so many recordings. It owns much more than the National Macedonian Television. When it comes down to it, the support was very important. The colleagues trusted me and the owner of the television also gave me strong support. We didn’t work for some awards or fame; we worked because we wanted to inform the public what was going on the field.
FPD: And were there any situations when you had to censor or not publish something? Not just you personally but also as a medium? Hence, knowing some information that maybe could, I don’t know, to upset the public?
SLS: Only that type of information, from ethical character is censored and was censored. If you remember, “A1” in that time was aired in Albanian and in Macedonian villages. We were trying to include both sides. And what’s most important, while we were doing that we didn’t have any problems with neither of them. I may even say that sometimes we were worse accepted in the Macedonian villages just because the previous day they saw some story from some Albanian place. We recorded the people running out from Tetovo, but we recorded the evacuating Albanians from Kumanovo too. So we were trying to cover both sides and not to not support any side, because you have to observe these events with cold hand. Anyway, there were moments as the event in Vejce. I’ve found out about the massacre very early and of course I was shocked. I called the editorial stuff. What we arranged was: not to publish anything that early about the massacre in Vejce until the bodies are taken down and identified and until the families are contacted. Because it was really a horrible act where if we talked we could get something we don’t… Those were human fates. Many mothers sent their kids as reserves or regular soldiers there, so we waited for a while. Of course, we announced when the time came, but we didn’t rush. We did not publish some information only for ethical reasons, not because of some political or any other pressure from one or the other side. And it was fortunate that those days the media informed that way. If it was today, I really can’t guess what would have happened. It’s lucky that no matter the fact that there was a conflict, still there was consciousness among the media. There were some supporting nuances by the Macedonian and by Albanian media, but within the limits of normal.
FPD: As journalists, how much did you have support by the officials of the army by instance? I suppose that after Tanushevci you’ve been reporting from other crisis regions. What was the attitude toward journalists?
SLS: Well, things started to change. A government of national unity was founded. In it entered both the position and the opposition also, SDUM and VMRO-DPMNE. Also I can say in that time DPA was in the Government and was very reasonable party at the beginning; it wasn’t justifying ONA activities, from which a political party came up later and it didn’t approve it. However, I do understand them, they don’t like anything to happen and to get the worst of the bargain for being Albanians. Regard to the politicians, I didn’t have any contact with a President, Prime minister, yet very rarely with the Minister of Interior, Minister of Defence. But mostly the help was from the people at the terrain, the Special Forces at that time. Very often I would just stand on the road to the Kumanovo villages where Matejche and other conflict regions and they would just pick me up with the transporter and wherever they were going, I was going together with them. During those times I as a journalist didn’t think very much about the dangers. The adrenaline led me. On the other side, maybe we were dear to them because of our reporting, as we reported truly as it was. Probably they wanted us to have authentic reports. So, there was collaboration. I know how everyone that had been on the field felt like and probably they thought that we are on the same level. All those commanders and officers all over the units had real understanding for our work and our desire to record what was happening on the field, not thinking about the danger at all, at that time.
FPD: What about the other side? Did you have contact with other commanders as they later wanted to speak in public?
SLS: We didn’t go to the headquarters at Shipkovica. Our work wasn’t to go to at the headquarters. We were going in the Albanian villages, in Tetovo region, Kumanovo region and so. Hence, when we were taking the field we were meeting people from NLA, but only for them to tell us how it was in the village, what was going on there which territory they used to think they had set free and things like that or we were just taping locals which in most cases, as you know, were saying that they didn’t know why the conflict started. Anyway, it was not my purpose to meet Ahmeti immediately. I met him only after he became politician. I didn’t want to transmit the messages of the both sides and let them to misuse us as journalists. The only thing that mattered to us was to process the stories from the field. And indeed, we showed that 10 years after the conflict with the stories we made about the first killed policeman in the rocketed police station in Jazhince, through all those victims and the first Albanian killed in the conflict, till the very last victims and children victims, the boy from Tetovo and the other little girl in Slupchane. So, that was our purpose and that’s the way we analysed the conflict. Of course, 10 years later everything came up at the surface and in those documentaries we made the conflicts, the lies, situations that politicians produced became known. Seems like they got relaxed by the time and started to tell how the thing were and it could be seen who, what and how manipulated.
FPD: Now, 15 years have passed from 2001. With your personal experience not simply as a journalist, but as a citizen, could you tell if there were any winners and losers in this conflict?
SLS: Well, all the citizens, no matter Macedonians or Albanians, were losers. And winners unfortunately always are the politicians. They sealed the fate both for Macedonia and its citizens. Turned out that the war which once was for rights, (OK, the Constitution was changed, I can’t claim that there was no impact) … a so called liberation army turned out to become political party and to enter into the Government immediately. No matter how these 15 years have passed, I was never happy about what happened, because maybe it would have been better if they didn’t enter in the Government immediately, so we could actually think that their aim were the rights of the Albanians, and not a political ambition. As we see, that same party is in power among the Albanians for 15 years. I don’t want this to be taken as nationalism; on the contrary, I’m speaking about a political party. And people are the losers because every one of them, even to this day…When the politicians want to cover something up in our state, or if they don’t want to talk about economic issues, they always want to push into a conflict between the Macedonians and Albanians, and that’s why there’ve been those fights between kids in the buses or some other incidents that occurred. But, the events in Kumanovo showed this is not 2001, that people cannot be manipulated that easy when conflict is happening and that the Macedonians and the Albanians also are so aware of what the politicians do or can do to them. And that’s why I’m so happy that people already recognise politics and political parties and not some allegedly “liberators” and realise that all of them have intentions to enter the Government and not to work for them – the citizens. This political crisis that lasts so long shows that very clearly. That’s why I hope that now everybody, Macedonians and Albanians have that defence mechanism not to allow to be manipulated by the political parties, especially when it’s about ethnicity and interethnic relations.
FPD: You have already answered quite of my next questions, but anyway if we are at the state and the political decisions, do you think very little has been done after 2001 regard to the institutional responsibility to help and to work with every affected side of the conflict, I mean veterans, victim families and displaced people? Somehow, according to me, the non-governmental sector has taken off that part to work with the affected sides. Seems that the institutions have forgotten those people.
SLS: It’s definitely so, because nobody worked with the victims and those were policemen, soldiers, reserves who were in the conflict. Nobody worked on their, how to say, some way of resocialization or psychological help. Many of them protest even till this day for not receiving their rights, salaries, benefits. Many families lost their loved ones and, let’s say, that’s one of the worst moments that I’ll remember in my whole career from that time. The hardest of all is to go on 5 funerals in one day when there were massive happenings and when you could see child, wife, mother who have lost their loved one and the worst is to go on a funeral of a girl, no matter if it’s in Macedonian or Albanian village. However, it did happen for us to go at Albanian families after those bombings in the Kumanovo’s villages. No one has worked with them too. Those people were totally forgotten by the society. And to this very day they are still forgotten, which shows us that both sides, the veterans of ONA and of the Macedonian army and police are still not satisfied with the treatment that the state has towards them. On the other hand, it’s bad that they misused the rights again for politics. The Ohrid Framework Agreement is executed administratively: more for employments, bilingualism and similar things. But that doesn’t make people happy, at least not those who were war victims. And again it has been done for political goals, for when it’s election time, the political party in power to say: “Look, we have executed the Framework Agreement, we hired so and so people”. And you know that today there are many people who stay at home, people listed as employees in the institutions, just for the Framework Agreement to be accomplished. But in reality they do not work and that’s not an accomplishment of the Agreement, according to me. To that, unfortunately there are no improvements for people’s life, at least not for those who were direct or indirect participants in the conflict, but there is a benefit for the members of the political parties who used the Ohrid Framework Agreement for political benefit.
FPD: And how much do the people at both sides have learnt from the conflict? How much did we all draw a lesson as citizens of this state?
SLS: I’m an optimist that we drew a lesson. That’s why I mentioned the conflict in Kumanovo. I was there, too. I was the first journalist that went there. I only had a mobile phone for recording, but my only concern was to be there. And the first thing I saw was people, Macedonians and Albanians, getting out of the settlement, frightened and in tears. But the new thing was that everyone while they were walking out of “Divo Naselje” talked and criticized the authority which was not case in 2001 when nobody talked against them. They all thought, their first impression was that the conflict is provoked to defocus and upset the public. Also, the bombs were actual in the same period. There was complete mistrust toward politicians and talked open against Ahmeti and Gruevski. In almost every statement, even if it was from a crying woman, the focus was on the politicians. That gives me a right to think that people are aware, they don’t want to be manipulated and say immediately what they think without any fear. For them, what is the most important is their home and family, normally, and not some political structure. That’s how was and still is “Divo Naselje” understood. It was not puzzled out why it happened and how it happened in an urban environment.
FPD: Probably we will yet to find out.
SLS: Yes. It yet will be foud out, but all believe, Albanians and Macedonians, that’s manipulation and attempt for manipulation with them. And that’s a good indicator and instance that if someone dares again to provoke a fight between Macedonians and Albanians, it won’t pass just like that and that we should be very careful when it’s up to the state’s safety. I do believe that this time, everybody will go together in front of the government and face the politicians with no ethnic divisions, but together against those who try to impose a conflict.
FPD: What’s happening now in “Divo Naselje”? Do you have any information if all the houses are renovated, are the people back there?
SLS: Well, we sent a journalist there and made report for “Divo Naselje”. Some of the houses are renovated. People there said that the houses which are part of the trial are not yet renovated, but anyway most of them are. And as I saw those houses are very much rebuilt and it’s a good thing that they managed to do it within a year, because there were many houses, it was really…
FPD: Was it state or private help?
SLS: The state, community and nongovernmental organisations. But mostly I think that the state helped the houses to be rebuilt. Not all are satisfied of the percent and the amount of money they got for rebuilding, but it’s not as it was in 2001. You know how many houses stayed inbuilt, how many people didn’t back home, how many people stayed displaced and the community didn’t care about them at all. At least this…even if the state did provoke the conflict, for what we still don’t have evidence, we still explore and made a few TV shows for “Divo Naselje”, at least they gave the people money to rebuild their houses.
FPD: From what I, let’s say, researched on the internet, it turned out that “Kod” and the debate shows in which you are participating as a journalist, somehow spent the most time on analysing the conflict in 2001. How much do the media have a key role in the reconciliation and initiating debates about these subjects which we want to hide a little, especially when they are related to victims, traumas, veterans and so on?
SLS: Well, the media are the key because that’s the only way for the public to find out, there is no other way. We decided not to forget 2001, because that’s the message for the future generations and that’s why we did so many attempts through the shows and through the confronting of Branko Crvenkovski, Ljubco Georgievski, Ljube Boshkovski, Buchkovski, I mean all…
FPD: Tachi?
SLS: Yes, Tachi and Ahmeti. So they were all included in those 3 shows. We wanted to ask the same questions and to see how they’ll answer them now. And they all answered differently or accused each other. So, Tachi had the virtue to say he’s sorry for some things he thought are right for the Albanians, but turned out they weren’t because someone misused that to reach the politics. So, some of them showed regret for some political decisions. Some of them, for example Ljubco Georgievski, still stood by the attitude that foreigners made the war. Ljube Boshkovski, I might say, still was showing a dose of nationalism in his statements. And Ahmeti stood on what he always says: “Within the European Union and NATO and Macedonia…” – and all of that. So, those statements show how much or how little they cared for the state at that time, but nevertheless they are useful. We also made debates to face the opposite sides in our shows. For example, ONA commanders with the commanders of the army and the military. They talk about how the attacks in Kumanovo are seen by the people from the troops and the army, and how the same is perceived by Talat Dzaferi and Stojanche Angelov. It’s interesting that they even agreed on some things. To that, it’s necessary to understand what the reason for the conflict was. And today’s confrontations are not just because of some anniversary. For example, after Goshince it was important to call the same men, let’s say Talat or Stojanche to tell their experiences and prevent such events in future. And I think it’s very good that some of them were included in the non-government sector and come on debates and speak openly for the things so the mistakes will not be repeated. The media are not allowed to manipulate with safety questions and if they do, that would be the biggest problem. In any case, the consciousness of the public today is stronger.
FPD: Is there, beside Tanushevci, any other event you rather won’t remember from 2001? Some traumatic experience?
SLS: Well, there are many…See, from today’s point of view it’s not traumatic experience if bullets were flying over your head, for me personally. So that, everything that was going on the field, and there was shooting, grenades, bullets passing nearby and dangerous situations, and let’s say, the capture in Tanushevci, it’s not a trauma. Traumas are the emotional moments. Trauma is when you find out that Karpalak happened, that Vejce happened, when you go on all those funerals and you see those people’s destinies, when you don’t have a word to express the compassion you’re feeling, when you’re feeling impudent as a journalist when you are with the camera on someone’s funeral and you’re recording his family and talk to yourself: ” Well, this profession is really awful”. When everyone is grieving and we have to tape it and show it. And stuff like that, when you go to the home of the girl who died in the bombings in villages like Slupchane or in Lipkovo region. Or other families like that when the father should speak how his child had died. They are really emotional moments and I sometimes hate my profession. However, I think to myself, if weren’t we the people wouldn’t know what happened. And that leaves an emotional trail on you. Here I will reveal one moment: while you visit all those events and you record every day somehow you start getting used to it and you become like a machine. However, when the war ended, when things got quiet, for a very long time I’ve been dreaming dreams of fear, connected to the family and connected with fear that someone is coming to take me and my mother and kill us. Probably those are feelings I’ve been accumulated in me and later, many years they were following me as something, let’s call it, subconscious, that was suppressed. However, all the emotions came out on the surface. And that’s why I think I would never forget some specific moments and pictures of what was happening in 2001. Unfortunately, I have photographic memory, because maybe the television forced me to develop it. And now from this point of view, I don’t know, I wasn’t that brave to stand in a middle of crossed fire in ”Divo Naselje” like I did in Tanushevci. Now I am focused on another type of story and that is the people and the inhabitants to tell me their story and their suspicions. In “Divo Naselje” the point wasn’t to follow the shooting of the police or how the other side was shooting back. We focused on the people and their statements that maybe they are being manipulated again.
FPD: One more question about 2001: let’s say, somehow the end of the conflicts escalated in Arachinovo and that whole period is…isn’t it…very…how can I say, for the public it was known as it was international factor included…Did you report from Arachinovo then?
SLS: We couldn’t enter in Arachinovo as a team. We could stand outside Arachinovo, to look for the surrounding hills or to climb on the roofs of the houses at night when there was an action and tape it. However, it was already politics. It was, in some way, the last phase of the conflict when the International factor got involved and when we started to watch the events politically. When it was important to find out how the ONA convoys are about to go, but also to find out how many victims there are. It was a trench battle for that time. From this point of view, I don’t know how much really we needed Arachinovo. I mean, I know the army wanted to show it liberated territories, it was final phase. But if it was already known that the politics and the international factor is involved, I think that NLA and the army already… All that was unnecessary. If they have seated earlier and agreed the war is over, with Ahmeti or with Trajkovski or Buchkovski, there would be no need for one more battle. But it did happen. Later, with that ending, the political resolution of the war became obvious – that something called Ohrid Agreements would follow together with disarming of members of ONA and the common amnesty. That way the political resolution of the crisis started. I don’t claim that there weren’t any tries by the International community to be settled earlier, but there were many unfortunate negations like the inclusion of Piter Feith for whom I’m not sure he always had sincere intentions in his actions. That time, there were sincere intentions from the representatives of NATO and the European Union, but obviously, it was the first indicator of how much stubborn were the politicians in Macedonia and even though many generations have passed, some of them are not changed. Some are still the same political actors and that stubbornness now is culminating and it’s getting even stronger. Then, obviously, it was the moment of war that forced them to sit at the same table in Ohrid and make an agreement in just a few days, the Ohrid Agreement. Now, do we need a war for them to sit and to fulfil the Przhino Agreement? Seems like, if there is no conflict in Macedonia, our politicians can’t solve anything. If we compare these two situations, we’ll see that it’s destructive for Macedonia that we are having this kind of politicians, who couldn’t care less. Last instance for them is, obviously, some conflict or instability, for them to realize that their political appetites are not more important than the peace and the normal life of the people in Macedonia.
FPD: Only few more details about Arachinovo. I guess, even at the end the public found out that there have been American citizens. Did you get that information? You’ve mentioned that the politics in a grand manner holds opposite opinions and information from all sides, all involved sides, let’s put it that way. Did you get those information from the, so to say, the international factor?
SLS: At first, we were reporting the way every battle can be reported, how many Macedonian forces are there in the village, how many ONA members, are there any victims and similar things. But we noticed that it lasted way too long and that something strange started to happen. And that were the negotiations for solving the conflict in Arachinovo, till the moment of decision should Arachinovo be attacked by air or not. And probably that was the turning-point when it had to be said “stop”, because there would have been civil victims. As regards to the foreign helpers involved in the action, I don’t remember well but probably we realized it a day before the ONA members to be pulled out by buses and we started to get information from the political cabinets or from the international community instead from the battlefield. It was already clear what was going to happen. Now I don’t know, I think Solana then came to negotiate and when he came it was clear that something had to happen and to put an end to that entire thing in Arachinovo. And then, you know how it goes – the Macedonian army was blamed for leaving Arachinovo, for betraying it, for letting them out. However, some politicians already realized that you can’t kick against the pricks and that was the only way for the war to end and fortunately that was the case. Some people, regardless their number, wanted to be heroes in that sense. I think it’s not heroic if you don’t let up. In politics, bigger heroism is to let up. Otherwise, I don’t know how that conflict could have ended. I guess it was going to be bombing of Arachinovo and that would lead us to much bigger conflict where the civilian population would have been heavily jeopardized. As you know, Arachinovo is joined to Skopje and if the battles were transferred to Skopje, then that was going to be fatal for the state. As you remember, everything that was happening was somehow cut out. Tanushevci had such a terrain that fortunately kept the civilians cut out except those inside the village. The Kumanovo – Lipkovo region… Unfortunately there were many people in Lipkovo. Kumanovo inhabitants suffered because of the water and the Lipkovo floodgate, but anyway the war didn’t get in the city. There were some villages near Skopje and Skopje region that were affected like Radusha but yet all that was isolated. Arachinovo was the decisive moment. If the war ignited then, I think it wouldn’t stop at all.
FPD: Are you still in touch privately with some of the people from that period? Because almost whole year, couple of months…Do you have any contacts, private, and not just professional that the conflict brought to you?
SLS: I do. And I’m glad I have them from Tanushevci, the peasantry from that time who were present when they brought us into the village. I was going there and made reports for Tanushevci because of some other events around the border. I was always welcomed. The same teachers, who were there then, were also present when I went there again. And we always make jokes: ”We should together… ” – not to celebrate but, “to remember the things” – and today nobody sees anyone as an enemy and they retell me how they experienced me when I entered the village, and I keep retelling about how did I experience them when I saw half of them with saws and axes at the entry of the village, because they didn’t have weapons. And now they’re good friends of mine, I have their phone numbers and we communicate. Communicate in a sense, for example, when some of them can’t reach Tanushevci, if the road is blocked and they have problems, they always call me. I have good friends among those who were with me in Matejche police station. I’ll never forget, while there was shooting everywhere, when we were all with bowed heads and they taught me: ” Zhane, don’t worry about the grenades you are hearing, It’ll fall on some other place. The one that will kill us we wouldn’t be able to hear”. So… However, they are still my friends to this very day and we call each other regularly, we drink coffee; ask about our health and family. I have friends who worked at some incredible places and were giving me information from hospital about the number of dead, wounded, and they are my very good friends till this day. And I love mostly the people I met through all those villages where the police convoy or the army were passing. Or people from the Albanian villages when I was getting information about their victims and I’m also still a friend with them too and I’m glad that when I go there we talk as we are close friends. So that, the conflict, no matter who provoked it, created friendships and not enemies. And probably I, as a journalist, should write a book one day or make a movie about all those experiences, but not with the people of the politics, but with the people left at the margin, who were forgotten, but still so brave for all that time and what’s the most important none of them is a nationalist today, it’s not…mean they live normally and have the same problems and everyday life, no matter if they’re Macedonians or Albanians.
FPD: You will become a mother soon. As a future parent with all those things on your back and all your experiences, what are you going to teach your child on?
SLS: Well, it is important to teach him on coexistence and mutual understanding in this country. My husband also is a foreigner and with other religion. It happened accidentally, not as we were looking for each other to relate that way. So from the very beginning there are predispositions to learn that there are no differences between the people, there are only good and bad people. The religion, nationality or language doesn’t matter if they are all good people. And I’m happy that my child from the first day is and will be raised in such family of differences, showing that those could function together. That, probably, will give him an example how to behave in that direction and to understand that he lives in a state of people from different nationalities and religions and that all of them should function together. Sometimes we are idealists who want to teach our children on all good and we know that when they go out, they might see unpleasant situations from the society, but it’s up to us, as journalists and as parents, to provide conditions that not to be like that. What I mostly unlike, now as a grown up and as a future mother is the segregation in the society, especially on kids. It’s been allowed to separate the children to that extent, that we don’t have, or we have a few kindergartens in Skopje where they teach both languages, where a Macedonian signs up his child in a kindergarten where It could learn Albanian or vice versa, Albanian where they can teach Macedonian. And the same happens in the primary schools and so on and at the end we get people that don’t know each other. Happy circumstance is that there are international school where there are no differences among the kids, but it is reserved for those who have more money and resources. However, I think this is a phase when we have to work on integration and not segregation. No matter how much 2001 was for rights, education and stuff, it shouldn’t have been allowed the Ohrid agreement to be used to that extent to make segregation of the kids in the education. And the integration itself is made by the non – governmental organisations and projects from foreign money. It’s not done by the Ministry of Education, by the state and it’s really sad when kids from Albanian and Macedonian nationality cannot understand each other. They will do that on their childish way when they are playing in the park, but they will get separated as they grow up. Second thing that should be done is related to the culture and art. There are no limits. For example, the song “Macedonia” to be performed both on Albanian and Macedonian language. There’s also haven’t done much and those are the things that bring the people closer. The only thing that connects the people unsatisfied from some economic situations now is strike, so the Macedonians and Albanians could go together on strikes or protests, no matter they are against one or another political party. At the moment, that’s the only thing that can associate the people from different nationalities…
FPD: At the end, is there something we didn’t mention or some general message like, let’s say, a bright spot or an aspiration of us as a society?
SLS: Well, it’s obvious we experienced 2001 and we all are going to say it shouldn’t repeat. It’s not just an empty phrase. But, fortunately these young generations don’t remember much of 2001, they were kids then and its fine. And those are the ones we should trust and give the guidance and I think they are the bright side of the society. And we should provide them conditions to stay here, to live together, to integrate, to be friends and us as media should help this to happen. We should criticize all the politics that cause differences and to judge everyone who just declaratively pronounces something positive is happening in the state, and in reality it’s not like that. So there, we, the media are the ones to show all the stories where something isn’t right and all those positive stories of coexistence. And those are many, believe me, and we should show them outside of Macedonia. I’m upset when those are shown only for a purpose when some foreign team is here to show them how beautiful is in Macedonia. Instead, we should point on the virtues of an individual, of the people and first off all of the younger. That’s the only thing I see as a bright spot of the society.
FPD: Thank you very much.
SLS: Thanks.
