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Siniša Stanković has been a journalist for 40 years. He works as a correspondent for the “Voice of America” on Macedonian language from Skopje. He has worked in various print and electronic media in Macedonia. Editor, columnist and author of several books.

The interview was recorded in 2020.

EMRAH REXHEPI: Hi. I am Emrah Rexhepi from “Peace action”. As part of the process of collecting life stories, today I am having a conversation with the journalist Sinisha Stankovic. Can you introduce yourself in few words, Mr. Stankovic?

SINISHA STANKOVIC: I am a journalist for 35 years. Last 20 years I am a correspondent for “Voice of America” – Macedonian in Skopje. Previously, I have worked in 7 – 8 weekly newspapers. I have been an editor, a columnist, and an author of several books and that would be it.

ER: You have been into journalism since you were a student during the real socialism. What is your opinion about the interethnic relations in Macedonia then? Or in Skopje, at least?

SS: Well, when I was at my journalist beginnings, 1984 – 85, it was the period after Tito’s death. The people who were older, more mature and more educated among us were able to recognize many things. We were still young and under influence of the Yugoslavism taken from the educational process. That is to say, building unity between equal nations in federation of brotherhood and unity – the ex SFRY. We were raised in scout – camps and vacation homes. All of them had one purpose in common – you should get to know your country and to love it even more. We were attending youth work camps; we were running with a relay for our Marshal and leader. We were making meetings for comrade Tito every May 25^th. That generation was raised in such spirit. At the end of the 80s and especially when it was starting to become clear that seas of blood would follow, mostly in Bosnia but also in the other parts of Yugoslavia where the war was spread, that generation of ours chose partially keeping the former state. We didn’t know other and otherwise. We were raised to believe that everyone who expresses stronger national feeling in some of the federate units of Yugoslavia must be a nationalist who wants to destroy the state, that nationalism is the ultimate evil so we have to oppose those, as they had been called then, tendencies. After that, the things started changing very fast. Citizen rights, and soon after the human rights too, were becoming more and more threatened. Just because someone declared or not declared, or someone else put him in position to be member of certain ethnical community, he would become a victim. It must have been cases when journalists from that generation inclined towards the other options and, unfortunately, some friendships were broken, and there were instances of former colleagues from that Yugoslavia to be gunning for each other. So, the journalists had a prominent role in all that evil at the end of the 80s. They were firing up and spreading that hate about which we, as young people dreaming the “brotherhood and unity” dream from the parties and adventures all around Yugoslavia, weren’t aware if it existed at all. But, we slowly started becoming aware. We became aware for the huge quantity of rage, hate and insults in printed and, naturally, electronic media which had more influence because in 19:30 or 20:00, whenever it was, the nation was watching the main news on its own language. Then the divisions showed up. They must have begun and glowed much earlier, but then they differentiated. Hate towards the others started joined with focusing and looking for an enemy who caused the crisis. Suddenly, for the economic crisis and the situation in the society generally, for the Serbs the Croats were the one to blame and for the Croats – the Serbs, for the Macedonians mainly the Albanians but also everybody else who, as the saying goes, “were taking an advantage over Macedonia”. Slovenians wanted out; they defined that clearly and wanted different relations with the other federate states. That time leadership which was politically installed by the only party held no brief for that. It was even less the case for the leadership of the still common Yugoslav People’s Army which was also much ideologized. So, the worst happened. Some of the republics, like Macedonia, had more luck, and some had bloody wars, like Bosnia. Some with 6 days long war, like Slovenia. Until this day I am convinced that all that was a deal between leaders of Serbia – Yugoslavia and Slovenia. And, of course, some went the way of Croatia where part of the population was subject of forced migration. We, in Macedonia functioned in the same way we always did. There was some immaturity. There was also some unpreparedness. Especially unpreparedness for leadership, with Kiro Gligorov at the head, as he was trying to preserve Yugoslavia to the last moment. Unpreparedness was in a sense that no one was thinking how independent Macedonia will function on economic level and, more important, on political level. Many things were jury-rigged and surely many mistakes were made. One of the things that, unfortunately, weren’t considered at all was interethnic peace, the interethnic balance in Macedonia because of the fact that until then for many things, including the position of the Albanians, Belgrade’s voice has been heard with no objections. It was time for big and difficult decisions which required courage and, more thаn anything else, strong reason. That’s why Faculty of pedagogy incident and the protests happened. All that turmoil with Tetovo University also happened because of the protests and the way they were handled. Soon it became clear that they weren’t handled at all. Things that should have been resolved on the negotiating table were handled by force and police instead. We somehow managed to reach 1999 when the interethnic issue in Macedonia and the problems related to it again came to the lore. The exodus of hundreds of thousands people, mainly Albanians, from Kosovo who found shelter here in Macedonia created an imbalance until this day. Census resolved nothing but made the ethnic Macedonians to fear that refugeеs from Kosovo will stay here and that would mean realization of all those things we were witnessing and hearing about a decade ago about Great Albania and Great Kosovo. I personally think that in 1999 Macedonia passed one hard exam. Considering all outbursts of nationalism, negativity, phobia that refugees from Kosovo will endanger Macedonia as а state, considering its structure and its capacities, Macedonia did its best. It had to accept the refugees and to find a way to relocate the people from that terror near Stenkovec. Accommodation in those refugee camps were just as they were, but it is important that the worst that many people feared didn’t happen. Even in 1999 some of the ethnic Macedonians supported Serbia during NATO bombarding while some of the ethnic Albanians had their own relatives arrive from Kosovo, so… Generally speaking, they were considering the Albanians from Kosovo their own countrymen with whom they lived in same country 9 years ago. After all it was a big test and Macedonia, notwithstanding all the negative aspects which came to light, I think shifted for itself much better than in 2001.

ER: Let’s go back at the beginning of the 90s and the process of getting independence for Macedonia. What were your personal feelings about that process and what impact do you think it had on the interethnic relations in the country?

SS: Well, everybody knows how Macedonia took its independence. No single bullet was fired and agreement was settled instead. Of course, there were the necessary negative correlate elements when YPA left the Macedonian territory. But, we can say that Macedonia was lucky enough to avoid real military actions on its territory, if we exclude the case of the young Macedonian citizens who died in YPA uniforms. We can say that, compared with Bosnia, for instance, and partially Croatia, Macedonia did well. At least, as well as the situation allowed. Naturally, there was injustices with YPA retreating, there were broken families, there were personal tragedies, but all that were natural elements associated to decomposition of the great country. I personally had faith that some way will be found that country to be preserved. Maybe that was naive faith, I was 25 then, but I believed that there is an option the unity somehow to be preserved. Even when Slovenia declared independence, I still believed that the rest of Yugoslavia will keep at least the economic collaboration and that some recommendations from that time will be obeyed. The media informed about the recommendations from USA and European Union how to be saved what had left from it. When everything went downhill, we were forced to think how Macedonia would survive alone, in what kind of state we would live and in what kind of state we wanted to live. Many mistakes were done. The only Albanian party then, Party for Democratic Prosperity (PDP) pleaded to their compatriots to boycott the referendum and, in a way, they deepened the thesis that this state doesn’t care about them and isn’t their state. That principle of great mutual distrust, mostly on а political level, continued on the level of ordinary interactions. There were frequent comments that the Albanian political elite towards independent and sovereign Macedonia has attitude as temporary resolution of some bigger game which later should result with some unification of all territories inhabited with Albanians, which meant reduction of the SR Macedonia’s territory. Distrust was in the air all the time. The relations were sometimes better and sometimes worse. But while the political elites were finding ways to stay in power together, everything was OK. Brotherhood and unity from SFRY existed only on two more levels: criminal and political, so to say executive authority. It became clear that if Macedonia wants to survive it will have to develop as a state and has to work on the protection of the human rights, but also it has to develop interethnic relations up to the level of mutual trust. There were, by my opinion, both successful and unsuccessful tries to accomplish this. But, from Ohrid agreement afterwards we are struggling to make Macedonia real civil state and we are still at pains to do that. At real pains because I think that there is no honest will to do that both at the government and the non – governmental sector. I think that the whole thing is pulling wools at our eyes and all they know is saying “we had to do that”. Maybe we don’t want that at all and if we had approval from the international community and if it was geographically doable we would separate. But, our political elites are no good and we all know that such tries for separation will mean a new conflict. I personally think that most of the politicians on the political scene don’t believe their own tirades about human rights (instead of brotherhood and unity) and equality of all citizens. I think that for them, it is a necessary evil: “We can’t do it otherwise, so we will proceed this way for now”.

ER: You have mentioned the boycott of the census and the referendum. What do you think was the reason for it?

SS: Well, I witnessed the referendum boycott on the scene. At first sight, all that seemed a little naive. All that cloths on chairs, voting for Ilirida or so called Ilirida, mistrust that the Macedonian leadership of the new state won’t leave Macedonia within the rest of Yugoslavia or would place it under control of Serbia, so the Albanians in such state won’t be equal no matter their number in Macedonia and Kosovo. On that mistrust of the Albanians was attached the mistrust of the ethnic Macedonians who thought that Albanians can hardly wait to leave and take part of the territory with them. So, the politicians then held no brief for that. Neither the ethnic Macedonians had conceptualized a clear national program what kind of state they want to build and what kind of state they want to live in, neither the ethnic Albanians had any vision about their role in the new state. So, witch such a high level of mistrust, it’s always… Political leaders played their cards close to their chest as they always were saying that someone works behind their back. On one hand, pro nationalist tendencies in Macedonia were repeating that ethnical Albanians have the international community’s support to separate and we mustn’t allow that. On the other hand, Albanians didn’t have trust in the Macedonian leadership’s will to create a sound state where all citizens will be equal and their rights will be respected.

Also, there was an involvement of different interest from all neighbor states. They had their representatives in this country or citizens of Macedonia who inclined towards some of these interests. Each of them, in their own way and according to their own capacities, worked on decomposition of the new state. Because all of this, the Macedonian state is dysfunctional until this day. We keep doing things which are, by all means, to be ashamed of. Instead of all citizens to be included in the distribution of that, how they call it, cake of the governance, if such a thing still exists, we still have people who stay at home because the political elite told to its electorate that it employed people according a certain percent, which is non sense. They get payment to be only a number in the political campaign of some party. It is insulting for those people, but they at least get some payment. In is unjust for the people who are better than them and who would really do the work in that administrative unit. We are not successful at all. There is membership in NATO on the horizon, but EU is still far away.

The transition became eternity. All our solutions are temporary and adjusted to a certain moment, ready to be changed if a different variant prevails. There is no long term planning and strategy how such small and poor country, brutally robbed by its own political elite in addition for 20 years, to survive and manage to keep someone younger than 30 to stay in this country.

ER: Let’s go back in 2001 for a minute, or the period before it, to be more precise. We already said something about it. I want to know how, according to you, the conditions for 2001 occurred? I don’t mean the technical preparations for war, but the political context.

SS: Well, in 2001 we started a new weekly newspaper. In December 2000 several of us left the then editorial staff and created a new weekly newspaper conceptualized to be a nice, civilian weekly where we would try to present our vision for the future on instances of successful people from our society. And “successful” meant that people were accepted by both sides. By both sides I mean Albanian and Macedonian because, with due respect to all communities mentioned and unmentioned in the Constitution, the relation between these two was decisive for Macedonian future. And I honestly think that 2001 shouldn’t happen at all. I am absolutely sure that it shouldn’t. There was huge deluge of lies, false promises and announcements, the first side was saying: “Enough is as good as a feast, now it is time to fight for freedom”, and the other side was saying: “The time has come to get even with them. We have our bellyful of their exaggerated demands”. That it was а common opinion that “Albanians demand too much, should we give them what they want or not”. During all those quarrels around the universities and those strikes against Pedagogy faculty, no one knit his brows that for whole country including the Macedonian themselves would be better if Albanians are well educated. The case with Van der Stoel proved that, as was said then, they demand to study on Albanian so much, so here it is – they study on English. Unfortunately, that doesn’t prevent the emigration, but that’s another story. Year 2001 had to be avoided trough maturity of the political leaderships. I don’t deny that some of the NLA members had mind goals which had nothing to do with human rights. Besides, they openly admitted it. Those people, or part of them, fought for territorial secessions. It doesn’t matter should we call them Great Albania, Great Kosovo or otherwise. The important thing is that they fought for something totally opposite to the concept of civil society. I also don’t deny that some of the members of the security forces, part of the volunteers but also of those recruited in the army or the police used the rebellion of the Albanians and intended and acted in defined periods as it was the last chance to put the Albanians in order. It is certain that there were such things. So, if someone says that these were fighters for human rights and the other ones were defending the constitutional order of Macedonia, it will be hard to swallow. There were extremists and people who were hiding their real intentions on both sides. But I am sure that the guilt of the political elites, both Macedonian and Albanian, was huge in 2001. It shouldn’t be shed anyone’s blood.

So, this state survived from 1990s to 2001 with all those events in Gostivar, all those things that happened, boycotts and all that. They were all exams which this country has passed, although the grades were not high. That 2001 arrived and threatened that it will ruin the country. Some people were saying: “Our country will be destroyed because of Arachinovo or Lojane”. The real reason weren’t Arachinovo and Lojane, but indeed there was a chance the country to be destroyed. I don’t think that anyone is happy with how all that ended, the Ohrid agreement. But it had to end somehow and it is good that it ended. It was good that some resolutions were implemented. Of course, there were some system errors, namely those percents: are they 23% or 22%. We hear about that to this day, as peoples’ rights depend on percents. It turns out that if Albanians are 15% in Macedonia, they shouldn’t be given rights. You see, even I used the term “given”. I meant, not to have the same rights as the rest. All those numbers were an imposed charade. And we rack about what to do until this day. Let’s say, the next census will prove that this country doesn’t have 2 000 000 inhabitants and 1 800 000 people on the electoral register. Albanians may be less than 23%. So what? That stuff has to be changed. It is not that much about are there 23% in some municipality or not. Badinter has to be applied at local level where the ethnic Albanians are majority. But again and again, we have to work on establishing and accepting of the individual rights. We can discuss about ethnic rights, of course, but on a different level. Concerning the human rights which were the official reason for the rebellion in 2001, we could discuss about them even then. I don’t say negotiate, although it would probably be some kind of negotiations, but let’s say discuss, they could be accepted if there was political force in Macedonia to make do with it by hook or by crook, but without bloodshed. With no arms, at least. I am not sure that 2001 is over and…

ER: How do you mean?

SS: Well, I think that 18 years we live in (this word gets on our nerves) transition, or expectation for the things finally to be placed in order. We can’t negate anyone’s ethnicity, but if you go out there, on Macedonia Street, take a microphone and make an inquiry with few questions, I bet that out of 10 people, at least 5 will give you an answer: “This state is good for nothing” no matter if that person is ethnic Albanian or Macedonian. Society, as such, is there, but the state doesn’t function from local to the highest level. We still suffer because of the dirty trades of the national leaders. We still had Przinos, evening matinees of parliament members in the clubhouse where they made the decisions instead at the official parliament meetings. Still there are people who are afraid of one election unit. Still the parties have lists with members for controlling people. We are suffocated and yet we can’t arrange a program for preventing air pollution. We are choking. And, of course, gapers know everything. Nobody does anything because any drastic act in any area can be against someone’s interests. Those interests are mostly private, and even criminal. But they always hide behind someone’s rights. They can be ethnic or some other kind, the important thing is that they corrupt the concept of human rights. You can see yourself how strong the reactions against the work of the non-governmental organizations are. There is so much pulling wool over eyes. They often do what they do to take the grant, not to help or to raise the awareness about a certain issue. I don’t know the exact number, but there must be at least 1000 NGOs in Macedonia. How many of them truly work on building civil society and human rights? Let’s take for example the cult towards the arms – we still shoot during weddings. All is kept on some fragile balance, like some kind of interethnic seesaw. But honestly I don’t think that we have achieved some level of accepting the otherness for the next 2-3 generations. I wish and I hope younger people to think otherwise and to be accomplished some level of accepting the otherness; to accept other language, skin color, religion, sexuality, no matter what it is. I don’t think that Macedonians, hiding behind the traditions and religion as they do, are ready to accept changes, to accept the other and try to understand him.

I felt sorry that many children became orphans during that 2001. And that point must be accented over and over again. I will say it again, that 2001 shouldn’t happen at all. We have to say a terrible truth to those children: there is no answer why their parents died. And it applies on both sides. Those children are of legal age now. They have right to ask: “Wait a minute! Why my father is buried over there? Why did my father fight for and did you accomplish that goal? He died for it”. Someone has to die, to be wounded and to stay traumatized or disabled in war. But, no matter how pathetic this will sound, what those who have been lucky enough to save themselves and to stay normal after the war did for those who have died and for their children? What did they do to prevent the same to happen again? I want to believe that 2001 won’t happen again. The fuse is short. And that fact is the scariest thing of all – that 2001 isn’t a lesson as it should have been.

ER: Did you follow the negotiations for the Ohrid framework agreement?

SS: Very little. I personally didn’t report about the negotiations. I knew only what was announced as an official statement: “They met the mediators, they agreed on this, they will continue tomorrow….” Protocol stuff of this sort. As I mentioned before that Ohrid agreement… that Ohrid or other kind of agreement had to be. Until this day some members of the Macedonian security forces consider that agreement for capitulation of Macedonia; not in front of the ethnic Albanians but in front of the international community, Kosovo or I don’t know who else… According to them, Kosovo was the aggressor. On the other hand, I don’t know if leaders of the ethnic Albanians managed to explain to the Albanians in Macedonia that Ohrid agreement is victory and what an average Albanian from Lojane gains from the Ohrid agreement. The Ohrid agreement is past. It has been implemented to a certain point and that’s it. This state moves according some to fixed traces. We will see how far it will go. But it had to be some solution, no matter how much forced it was. It was unavoidable. We all know how it was signed – as а necessity after а turbulent period with support from the international community. What we, the citizens, think about that agreement; as something that had to be done better with а better final effect, or as something that we were forced to accept… It is a subject for some future conversation; 10 wise men with sensibility to listen what the other have to say to try to find a common conclusion and 2001 finally to become history.

ER: What do you think, what does this piece agreement mean to the smaller communities?

SS: Ohrid agreement?

ER: Yes, framework. As if their voice doesn’t exist at all. The Serbs, for instance.

SS: Yes, their voice is unheard. I don’t know, it means nothing. I will say again, that issue had to be resolved between the ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Albanians as two largest communities compared to the rest. They outnumber all other ethnic communities, but it has nothing to do with the human rights of any individual Roma, Serb or Bosnian in Macedonia. This Ohrid agreement has nothing to do with them. As long as we talk on level of ethnic communities we haven’t done anything. I don’t know when the time will come to talk about the rights of every individual in Macedonia. I honestly don’t know. All we can do is to hope that some different type of education will do it. Our problem aren’t the obsolete textbooks but the obsolete ideas, the people who simply refuse to understand that the world and the history doesn’t begin with Macedonia and won’t finish with Macedonia, that different experiences exist which don’t have to be necessary acceptable for us and which don’t have to be applicable on this period. Most of the citizens may not accept it, but we should keep explaining that one part of the population will accept it and they shouldn’t be stigmatized because of that. We have to be able to discuss on any subject and we have to find enough patience and tactfulness. So, I can’t see how I can answer this question. The smaller ethnic communities didn’t get anything from that agreement. Some of them were mentioned in the Constitution, some of them weren’t and that’s all. The worst thing of all is the fact that the biggest ethnic Macedonian parties, VMRO and SDSM, managed to create their own party in every smaller community. Now we have one Serbian party which is with VMRO and another Serbian party which is with SDSM, one Turkish party which is with VMRO and another Turkish party which is with SDSM, Roma party….a real masquerade. And they always have their own representative, “democracy” at its best, so SDSM gives power to its own people, VMRO does the same, mostly on low level public functions…it is a classic masquerade.

ER: What do you think about the transformations of the society after 2001? I ask specifically about the interethnic relations, but also about the relation to and from the state institutions?

SS: There were some changes, for sure. Some of them were towards better. The problem isn’t accepting the changes, but in the fact that personnel roundabouts of the parties caused defects in the coming into life of these changes. We said that it is natural to have more ethnic Albanians in some ministries, let’s say Ministry of Internal Affairs or Secretariat for European Affairs. That is supported by, I presume, all sane people in the country. The problem is that the ethnic qualification becomes self evident and the true qualification isn’t what is required, but the party the candidate belongs instead. So, with aim to compensate someone who had been a lackey for the party or let’s say fought in the forests, they give him some function which is beyond his capacities. Of course, that causes animosity. Instead creating Stoel or Tetovo state university, we could gather the most qualified Albanians from St. Cyril and Methodius and the other universities and that way to raise the percent of Albanians in the state administration. Often we were witnesses of electing people from the ruling party. And I guess, actually I am sure that it causes reaction of the ethnic Albanians themselves. There is no competition, qualifications or judgments for someone’s value. It only matters who will get the favor of the party leadership to gain something he doesn’t deserve.

ER: What do you think would be essential progress in the interethnic relations today?

SS: Well, it is hard to achieve essential progress in a time when everyone’s main goal is survival. We can see the economic downfall and how much hate exists between the ultras of different teams. Those ultras groups aren’t saints nowhere in the world: hate speech and racism exists in the stadiums all over the world. Our problem is the fact that party youths infiltrate in those ultras groups so they share the influence of the parties. Their hate towards the others is stronger than the love for their own team. And when we talk about step forward…One step forward would be to acknowledge the situation of two parallel worlds who know very little about each other. There is some work done during these 18 years. The non governmental sector is active and when I see the young people in particular nongovernmental organizations, they seem phenomenal if you ask me. That is the Macedonian salad in the act. So, it is functional on minor levels. We should somehow raise that on a level of the whole society. I really can’t say how to do that with so much hate and distrust still present. But, first and foremost, we have to start with the family, with the education and upbringing of our own children. It is not just an empty word about cohabitation when I say that willing or not we have to live together. All of us can’t emigrate. Those who will stay will have to live here. They will have to choose will they live like gunslingers, all the time in fear that someone will shoot at their back, or like normal people. And during the recent years, especially after the visa liberalization, the young people saw how the people live outside. They saw that people can live in the same state although they don’t like each other. We don’t know each other, which is a fact. Maybe the education should have a more prominent role about this. We should get to know each other, that is the first thing we should do. That would decrease the distrust, and after that we should do everything we can to became more compact, meaning one society for everybody. If we manage to do that, on the long term, there is still some chance for us. A little chance. If not, we will stay two parallel worlds. Maybe 2001 won’t repeat, but still we won’t function. We won’t function. We will be two worlds who are afraid of each other and the other will always serve as an argument why we don’t live better: “They torture us; they don’t allow us to go forward”. The accuser will always find arguments that it is other’s fault, it doesn’t matter what it is. So, we will stay like this, barely surviving in a Balkan suburb of Europe and nothing more. And if Europe continues to cut off the ground from under us, as it was the case in the last few months, we will be deep in trouble.

ER: Thank you.

SS: Thank you too.

Snezana Lupevska Sozen

Diana Tahiri

Siniša Stanković