Xhelal Zejneli was born in 1954 in Tetovo. He worked as a professor of Albanian language and literature at the Tetovo Gymnasium. He also works as a translator, and he was deputy director of the Media Information Agency MIA (2002-2006). Author of linguistics works published in Macedonia and abroad.
The interview was recorded in 2020.
FLLANZA JUSUFI: At the beginning I would ask you to introduce yourself to us, your name and surname. Tell us where you work or where have you worked, school, country… something more.
XHELAL ZEJNELI: I am Xhelal Zejneli. I was born on May 11th, 1954 in Tetovo. I completed my primary and secondary education here. I completed my university studies at the University of Belgrade. I also attended postgraduate studies as a full-time student at the University of Belgrade, Faculty of Philology.
In 1979 I was hired as an Albanian-Serbian and Serbo-Albanian translator at the Federal Council, the Federal Executive Council in Belgrade. Namely in the Yugoslav Government. I worked there, that is, I worked there for 14 years, until 1993, when Yugoslavia ceased to exist. So I lived in Belgrade for 20 years, I also had my apartment there. I studied for six years and for 14 years I worked in the bodies of the Federation in the Yugoslav Government in the capacity of translation within it… as a translator within the Albanian editorial office, or the editorial office of Kosovo.
Then, in 1993 I returned here to Tetovo and I was employed at the Tetovo gymnasium as a professor of Albanian language and literature. In 2002 I was appointed as a Deputy Director of the Macedonian Information Agency, known as the Makedonska Informativna Agencija. I was the deputy director there for four years, and in 2006, that is, after four years, I returned to the high school in Tetovo, where I still work today as a professor of Albanian language and literature.
Meanwhile, I am the author of the book of 500 pages titled “Periods and directions in literature – literary methods”, I also publish articles on political topics and literary and linguistic topics in all media published here in Macedonia, Albania, in Kosovo, in Europe and in America. And my writings are translated into foreign languages, into a couple of foreign languages.
I am married and have four children, three daughters, and a son. My daughters are married.
That’s all I can tell you about myself. I am not active in any political party. I have often participated in TV debates, in TV studios. And I have a critical opinion and critical attitude towards all Albanian or Macedonian political parties, in function of the smooth running of the democratic processes here in Macedonia.
FJ: Anything more about the school where you work? A brief description.
XHZ: In the school where I work, in the gymnasium, we do not have problems with colleagues, nor with the principal. Schools in Macedonia are politicized. They are partisan, because the principals in all schools in Macedonia, maybe even in the Balkans, are appointed by political factors without professional criteria. If you are their man, a man of the party, you are obedient to the party, to the political entity, you are appointed as a director regardless of whether you meet the conditions, the criteria to exercise that job and that task. Therefore, education in Macedonia is not at the needed level.
In the test called PISA, the PISA Test, an international measurement or international assessment of knowledge of 15-year-old students… it is an international measurement of knowledge of 15-year-old students, Macedonia ranks among the last countries in the world! Kosovo and Macedonia are among the last countries in the world.
I was an evaluator of the PISA tests of Albanian students in Macedonia. I did that twice and Macedonia has taken the fourth place worldwide from the bottom. Kosovo is the third country in the world from the bottom. Which means that 77% of Albanian and Macedonian students, since the data are not for Albanians and for Macedonians separately, are for the whole state. At the state level. 77% of 15-year-old students here in Macedonia do not understand what they read.
Why is this happening? This depends on a number of reasons. One of the reasons is, as I said, the extreme politicization and partisanship of the education system in Macedonia. Everything is in the hands of the political factor, the political parties. Even the village school janitor (We can’t use the word servant in this context) cannot be appointed if he does not belong to a political entity. That`s it.
FJ: Thank you. I will now return to the period before 2001. You were working, as you said, even in the 80s, 90s. Can you draw a parallel between what schooling was like, the education system during the 80s compared to the 90s, or before the war in 2001 happened.
XHZ: There is a widespread opinion that today, on June 16, 2020, education in Macedonia is in a state of… not good. This is a widespread opinion. Incompetent people also deal with this issue. You go to the bazaar, the market and the old bazaar and they say there is no education, the education is ruined. People who do not know the problem, those who are not there, who do not deal with this issue. And they say that from 2001 until today, education in Macedonia is declining. I am talking about Albanian education, in Albanian language, since the education in Macedonian language… I have no information. I speak about where I am. And they take 2001 as the border, allegedly the decline begins then, the collapse of Albanian education here in Macedonia.
I had a piece of writing. The article has 50 pages. It has been published, the writing has also been published in America. “Albanian education in Macedonia – shocking degree of degradation”. It is also in Macedonian language. I am telling you that some 10-15 years ago there was some quality in our schools. There was some order, some discipline and criteria. In the last 10 years or the last 15 years, the quality, order, rules, discipline, criteria, are being relativized to the point of triviality. And this is exactly what relates to the deterioration of the quality of Albanian education here in Macedonia. It has been long since students do not repeat the school year, do not repeat the class. It has been long since, do you understand? Long since. Some 7-8 years, 10 years.
I do not want to take the year 2001 as a turning point. I have no reason to take it, but before 2001 the students would repeat the school year, they would fail the year, which is good. When the student fails the year it is good, when he/she doesn`t, it is bad. Do you understand? So now… there`s 7-8 years since, maybe even more, not even one student. Even the one who has 10 F`s, a week before the end of school, he passes.
FJ: This is in terms of students’ knowledge. But as for the issue of rights… it means the 80s, the 90s, the turning point as you said is somewhere in 2001. How was it? How was the education system in that period? Something you had to deal with as a teacher, as a professor in that period?
XHZ: Listen now. Back then we faced certain problems, such as the lack of textbooks. Do you understand me? We were faced with translated texts, primary and secondary school textbooks translated from Macedonian into Albanian, translated in an amateurish and unprofessional way.
But even today we do not have the right amount and textbooks. We still do not have quality translated textbooks from Macedonian to Albanian. Even today they are translated in an amateurish and unprofessional way.
FJ: In what language was the teaching done back then?
XHL: Listen now. I do not know if you have heard of the term “mixed classes”. At the end of the 80s, 1988-89, I do not know when was the period the anti-Albanian axis of crime Skopje-Belgrade-Titograd (today known as Podgorica), made a decision to create the so-called “mixed classes”, which means that the class had 30 Albanian students, one Slavo-Macedonian student, and for the sake of that Slavo-Macedonian student all the others had to learn in the Macedonian language. This was a Skopje-Belgrade-Titograd strategy to assimilate Albanians, to marginalize them, ghettoize and exterminate them and to force them to move from their historic ethnic lands towards Europe and elsewhere in the world. This has been namely the period of mixed classes.
Some upstanding Albanians were also put in the service of this period. A, “honourable Albanian? upstanding Albanian”, according to the Belgrade press, were those Albanians who cursed Albania and praised Yugoslavia. Who? The Albanian who cursed Albania and praised Yugoslavia, he was called by the Belgrade press an “honourable Albanian? upstanding Albanian”.
And at the time of the mixed classes there were 2-3 upstanding honourable? Albanians here in Macedonia and in Tetovo who supported that theory, but for a very short time this absurd idea faded like a soap bubble. Professors, teachers, students and pupils were imprisoned for this. They were imprisoned. They were put in the dungeons of Serbo-Slavia, do you understand? They were beaten, tortured, fired from work, expelled from school. But that period then vanished.
This was in the period of communism, and in the time of Tito’s Yugoslavia or in the time of AVNOJ Yugoslavia, do you understand? We are now entering the education system of the post-1991 pluralism period – Albanians have been extremely discriminated against. Only 1% of Albanians enrolled at the Cyril and Methodius University in Skopje. Only 1%! They say 3%, 4%… 3% are done with that pedagogical school. It was not a school, it was a pseudo-school. All subjects were in Macedonian language, only one subject was in Albanian language, they also called it Higher Pedagogical School, do you understand? It was a pseudo school. And with some students who enrolled there, the number reached 2-3%, or in fact at the University “Cyril – Methodius” in Skopje only 1% of students would enrol. That is why Fadil Sulejmani founded the University of Tetovo, do you understand? Professor Fadil Sulejmani founded the University of Tetovo with a group of intellectuals. A group of intellectuals from Macedonia, not only from Tetovo. From Struga, Ohrid, Debar, Kichevo, Gostivar, Kumanovo, Skopje, Tetovo, do you understand? He founded the University with a group of intellectuals.
The University of Tetovo is a result of discrimination against Albanians to get education in their mother tongue, especially at the university level. And what was then called UT – University of Tetovo was born.
We have been extremely discriminated against. In primary schools the classes had 45 students, do you understand? Discrimination does not wear horns. This is discrimination. There were 45 students in the classrooms, in the primary school. So, unprepared students were finishing their studies/completing their education coming out does not mean the same thing as in Albanian. They would complete four years, then eight years, but teachers were not to blame. So how can you work with 45 students? You can neither maintain order, nor discipline, nor have time to control, to grade, to evaluate, and so on.
There were schools that worked in 3 shifts. In 3 shifts! Elementary and high schools, do you understand? I’m talking about the period before 2001, let’s be frank. We are in 1991-2001, a decade, 10 years. Primary and secondary school with Albanian classes in 3 shifts, do you understand? What does 3 shifts mean? From 7 to 10:30 one shift, from 11 to 2 o’clock another shift, like in the “Teteks” factory when they worked in shifts. They also call it shifts, the first shift, the second shift. And the third shift, from 3 pm to 5 pm or 6 pm, do you understand?
What kind of a school is this? The lesson lasted 10 minutes, 25 minutes. Is this what they call school? And now, this lasted even after 2001, let’s agree. Things are not corrected and improved immediately. Things do not change quickly and easily. In order to change them it requires not only political will, but also a material basis. You need an economic basis a financial basis to build schools, to create staff and so on.
But today, we do not have these problems. Today, June 16, 2020, classes count 15 to 20 students in an elementary and middle schools, with some exceptions. And the one with three shifts, that’s over, of course. This is it…
FJ: Let’s go back to that period a bit more. In that period there were mixed classes with students from different ethnicities, or were they only with Albanians?
XHZ: In the time of pluralism there were no mixed classes, there weren`t any mixed classes. The mixed classes were in 19… in the time of Tito’s Yugoslavia or AVNOJ’s Yugoslavia. Tito was not there then as he died in 1980, you know? But this, mixed classes, this was Belgrade’s strategy!
FJ: Did you communicate with your colleagues, the school staff, with the Macedonian side?
XHZ: Listen now. We have never had any problems or conflicts with our colleagues. Do you understand? We did not have any, but we did not communicate either! Even today there is no communication. Do you understand? Macedonia is a bi-ethnic state, composed of Albanians and Macedonians. There is no communication.
I was a student in high school. Long time ago. There was no communication. Today, 60 years or 50 years later, there is still no communication between Albanian and Macedonian students. The End. Brussels or USAID, or America are trying in vain… to create a multi-culture. There isn`t any! Do you understand? I’m there, both as a student and as a professor – there is no communication nor contact. There is no sport games even, Albanians play football against the Macedonians or Macedonians play against the Albanians – none. Or, 5 Albanians, 4 Macedonians, or 7 Macedonians and 3 Albanians in the same team – there aren`t any. Do you understand?
Tito called these fraternity-unity, we are creating Yugoslavia, fraternity-unity, and today they call it a multi-ethnic, multicultural society. This is the same as the fraternity-unity of Josip Broz Tito. There is no fraternity-unity, no multiculturalism, but there is a gap! This is the reality.
Why is this so? This is more than a political issue. More than political. In 1991 Macedonia broke away from the Yugoslav amalgam. It came out of the Yugoslav amalgam. Slavo-Macedonians declared themselves the sole heirs of the state. Slavo-Macedonians declared themselves the sole holders of citizenship. Albanians, meanwhile, were left them on the margins of these political and democratic processes. They were left on the margins of the process and the national discrimination against Albanians from 1991 onwards continued, just like in the time of Aleksandar Rankovic in Yugoslavia. Do you understand? And this discrimination lasts from 1912 until today. To date! Let`s take until 2001 when the Ohrid Agreement begins to change in some way the political status of Albanians, that some change has certainly been made. Not a complete change, but some change, some correction. And since then, from 1912 until today, a discriminatory, restrictive, and oppressive policy has been pursued against the Albanians in Macedonia. Do you understand? Marginalizing and ghettoizing.
We make up 30% of the citizens of Macedonia. 30% of the population of Macedonia, and we have the potential to be state-building people. We have been treated, we were treated as a national minority, as a minority, you understand? We have been treated like this. Even today they want to treat us as a national minority and as a minority. As in the time of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (of the king), the Yugoslavia of Pashic, Nikola Pashic of the Karadjordjevics. Later, in the time of Tito’s Yugoslavia, we were treated, that is, under the boot of Aleksandar Rankovic, do you understand? And so on. Even in the political pluralism here in Macedonia from 1991 onwards, Albanians have been treated as a minority and violence has been used against Albanians.
We have the violence in Bit-Pazar, the violence in Radolishta, the violence in Gostivar where people were killed, the violence on the occasion of the founding of the University of Tetovo – he was killed, do you understand, a person was killed, he lost his life by the police… by the police.
FJ: Yes.
XHZ: … by the police. Which means that… Macedonian professors are lecturing at that university today. They teach in Macedonian. Do you understand? There are Macedonian students. They did not allow it to be established, they did not want it to be formalized, and today they work there and have their students. They have their own departments, their own departments in the Macedonian language. That means it is not a bad project! Please.
FJ: Yes. What do you think, were all these things you mentioned the reason why the war in 2001 happened or blew up?
XHZ: Listen now. The 2001 war is a civil war! It is not a war imported from Kosovo, as the Slavo-Macedonian nationalists show it to be. It is a consequence of the dissatisfaction of the Albanian people here in Macedonia.
The war of 2001, which started here in Tetovo Castle on March 14, at 10:30, you understana, and the fact that the front stretched from Tanusha to Tanusha, is a consequence of the deep dissatisfaction of the Albanian people in Macedonia. This is a dissatisfaction accumulated from 1912 to 2001. Accumulated during the time of Serbia, the Balkan Wars, the First World War, the time of Yugoslavia of the kings Kragjordjevic and Pashich, and from the time of Rankovic, AVNOJ Yugoslavia, or Tito.
The same policy has continued in the time of pluralism, but our allies, the Americans, our lifelong friends demanded from the Albanian factor in Macedonia and from the Albanian political factor to pursue a constructive, stabilizing and a peacekeeping policy, to maintain peace and stability in Macedonia and the region. It is the issue of Kosovo, Kosovo`s problem. The solution to the Kosovo problem is a priority, and here the Albanian factor and the Albanian political factor has pursued a peacekeeping policy.
What does this mean? And stabilizing. They have acted within the institutions of the system, they have acted with political and democratic means. They have formulated and articulated their demands in a political and democratic way. They have been in the Government, in the Parliament, in the Assembly of this country, they have not caused problems. They have been a constructive factor! But these, the Slavo-Macedonians do not understand constructiveness. As a result, the 2001 war broke out, which ended with the Ohrid Agreement, which deals with the amendment of the Constitution of this country. And it was a unitary, centralist, mono-ethnic constitution, do you understand? Where the Macedonians were the patrons of the state and where 30% of the population of this country were in ghettos and marginalized, and had less than 1% of power.
That’s why the 2001 war happened. The 2001 war is of the National Liberation Army and the political factor of that army, do you understand? It was done not against Macedonia, not against the Macedonian people but against the Slavo-Macedonian army, the Slavo-Macedonian police and the Slavo-Macedonian paramilitary units in order to change the political status of the Albanians who are indigenous people in these lands.
Because in their books, their textbooks, from primary school to university, they create a false science under the influence of Serbian academics that the Albanians in Macedonia came in the XIX century. Do you understand? When the historians of the world, the scholars of Europe know that we are the descendants of the Illyrians and that we have been in these lands for 5000 years .
And the 2001 war is a civil war. It was supported by all Albanians here in Macedonia without exception! The war of 2001 was supported by all, by the entire Albanian people. They sent their children to the frontline, do you understand? They have supported the army economically and materially, and the war. The war was also supported by Tirana and Prishtina…
FJ: Where were you when it happened …?
XHZ: I was… the day the war started, you know, I was at school. That day.
FJ: Can you tell us about the issue… how was it, what happened to the education…
XHZ: We had 10 classrooms, we had 10 classroomsin the primary school “Liria”. Tetovo Gymnasium had 10 classrooms. Because we had no place in high school, no rooms for students. Why did we not have space? Because we were discriminated. That the state said teach 40… I had a class with 40 students, I had it. Can you imagine holding 40 boys, 18-19 year old boys in a class, do you understand?
FJ: What was the challenge for you in this period?
XHZ: I was also… we had 10 classrooms in “Liria”. We had close to 350 high school students. I was lecturing but I was also a supervisor.
On March 14th, the 2001 conflict began. It started at the fortress at 10:30, even that day or the next day, because this thing was, when was it, 20, 19 years ago…
FJ: It`ll be 20 years next year.
XHZ: They came, the lesson was taking place, 2 or 3 people came, young boys. They opened it, I was in my office, they opened the office, the office door, they did not come in and they said “professor, stop teaching immediately”. They gave me an order. They were young, twenty-two or three years old. And I do not know if they were camouflaged, I do not remember. I asked “who are you and where does this request come from?”, not to say an order. As they said this as an order. As an indisputable appeal. They did not wait to respond to me, they left immediately. They only said to interrupt the teaching process as the situation is not to hold lessons.
I waited for the bell to ring, but I rang the bell ahead of time. (not appropriate in this context) I told the student at the bell booth, I called him and told him to “ring the bell 10 minutes earlier”. He did it, the professors came out of the classrooms. 10 professors, even some 2-3 who were there in the professors’ office, I gathered them, I said “2-3 people came, I did not know them and they said to stop the teaching process immediately because the situation is not to hold lessons. Certainly these are the envoys of the National Liberation Army, or the envoys of those who wage the war.” As the National Liberation Army had not yet presented itself as an army, it came out a little later. Even the political wing of the army. They told me “you are the supervisor so what do you think?” – I said “we shall stop immediately so as not to cause any problems, because they can come back again”. Especially the situation, we all knew how it stands, there is gunfire from both sides. Even from those who were in, that is, though, concentrated in the Castle of Tetovo and not only in the Castle, the area here towards the village but also the area towards the village Sellce, do you understand? The Castle was in the middle, between the two wings. The commanders of that time are still here today, who started that work are still here today.
And then we interrupted the classes and I immediately wrote to the students, I wrote 2-3 lines by hand and I called the student on duty to read it through, in 10 classes, where the teaching process is interrupted and that they immediately go home, not to stop on the way or in the city. So that something doesn`t happen. As the city seemed to be emptied, people settled into houses. There was gunfire from both sides. The state with the army, the police, it began to react. That’s the day it started. Then the process stopped, the process stopped.
The problem was that the demands of the Albanians here in Macedonia were presented by the Albanian political parties, which was started by the Partz for Democratic Prosperity , which was a popular movement in a way, and which was continued by the Albanian Democratic Party… I am talking about until 2001, these demands, formulated, articulated, paved in the political and democratic way within the institutions of the system were ignored by the Slavo-Macedonian side…
FJ: Yes. We can go a bit back to the…
XHZ: …and our rights were measured in the Poprust’s bed. A nation with state-building potential cannot exercise its rights by being measured by the other side in Poprust’s bed. And so the Albanian issue clashed from Scylla to Charybdis. From bad to worse. So came the war of 2001, which was a war… the National Liberation Army respected the rules of war and the international war conventions. It respected them. There was an emblem, there was a hierarchy, there was a uniform, there was a political wing… That is it.
FJ: During the period, that is, when the teaching process was interrupted, did you have any contact with the students or their parents? In that period it was even more difficult, it wasn`t…
XHZ: Listen now. There is a pandemic here, COVID-19 and so on – the school has been interrupted for 3 months. Do you understand? From March to June, until June 10 when the school ended. But the process was run online, as you the young people say. Through computer networks, internet, digital and so on, with ZOOM and here and there. It has been implemented piece by piece with different digital platforms. I have implemented it as well as all my colleagues in all schools in Macedonia. Do you understand…
FJ: In that period?
XHZ: …we also kept the class councils online. Class councils, do you understand? We have also given homework through these platforms and we have corrected them and we`ve received answers from students and we graded them, and so on.
In that period this technology did not function, and probably did not exist. Understand? So, back then we tried to give spirit and morale to the students to read the works, to open the textbooks, from the mother tongue, Albanian language and literature, to the last subject, art, music, and sports and sports activities, mathematics, biology, physics and so on…
FJ: In what way did you communicate with…?
XHZ: We communicated by phone, we had them over the phone. As we have the data of the students, we also have the data of the parents, this is an administrative procedure in order to keep them alive, to keep their souls and spirits alive so that they do not fall into lethargy. Well, a number of students went to Prizren, just so you know. I…
FJ: It means they moved. They transferred…
XHZ: Yes, yes. From the highland area, from the zone, a number of students with parents and families. As those were areas severely hit by anti-Albanian army forces, police, Slavo-Macedonian paramilitary. Civilians were also shot, so they went to Prizren. And when we have…
FJ: Were those students transferred and studied in schools in other countries?
XHZ: Yes, they went with their families, they settled in Prizren. Now, whether they have left Prizren, or went somewhere else in Kosovo, I do not know. When we came back, when they came back, that is, when the situation started to normalize after the Ohrid Agreement, they had not come back yet. Someone called on the phone, said “good morning professor”, I said “yes please”. “I,” he said, “am the deputy commander”. “What deputy commander, the war is now over.” “No, no,” he said, “I am still at the frontline, the war is over, but I am in a military positions”. He did not introduce himself by name and surname. So I said, “What’s the matter?” He said “you`re failing your students in your school”, he told me on the phone. I said “listen here. We in education, do not manipulate with expressions and terminology “we fail them, we pass the students”. These are expressions that have nothing to do with the educational process. We have procedures how to implement the educational and teaching process. A part of the procedures is grading, evaluation of students. “Failing or passing them,” I said, “such terminology in education is not used in any school in the world.” “You professor” he said, “you know that you have students outside Macedonia, who have left because of the war and can not return as they couldn`t get documents.” I said, “Listen, you are out of your depths here. These are matters of the school bodies and they will be sorted”. The Albanians were in the system. The war was taking place there, of the National Liberation Army and its political wing, supported by the people, do you understand? By the Albanian people.
But, the Albanians were in the system, in the Government and in the Assembly. How well that Government and that Assembly functioned is another matter. As the international factors, the international political centers of establishment, Washington and Brussels asked the Albanian political factor to remain in the system, to remain in the system. So the Albanians were in the system, the party that was in the system. Even in September when we saw it, a number of students were in Prizren.
A meeting was held on how to deal with these students, to issue the certificates, so that they do not miss the year. Turning them, that is, by turning them into students that shall take class exams. And so it happened. Some tasks were given, some instructions for all the subjects, from the Albanian language which is the first language, to the end, and they got prepared. It was not a large number of students, 7 or 8, and we gave them diplomas, do you understand, that is, so they would not miss the year. But, they underwent exams and the procedure was respected. That`s it.
FJ: So when did it begin, did the lessons start in September?
XHZ: Yes, from September 1st.
FJ: Yes. How was it, can you make a comparison, if you can tell us?
XHZ: We had no internal Albanian problem, no problem at all. No problem with the Slavo-Macedonian side.
FJ: Did you communicate? Was there communication between the children…
XHZ: We communicated normally with the Slavo-Macedonian side.
FJ: You, the teaching staff, the professors or the students?
XHZ: No, no, the students have never communicated, and they do not even say hello to each other. In the Tetovo Gymnasium this cannot even be noticed since we teach in separate buildings.
FJ: Has it always been like that, or?
XHZ: Not always. They used to be in the center. November 28 was celebrated and the one who organized it, the professor, he put the national flag, the flag of Gjergj Kastriot, the portrait of Gjergj, do you understand? When the Slavo-Macedonian students arrived in the morning, they saw the flag and the portrait of Gjergj, they boycotted the lessons for a week or two, here and there. Then came the political influences from political parties, VMRO or SDSM…
FJ: Yes, that has changed, too.
XHZ: …they influenced and so on. We did not even enter the classroom. Fouere came as well, it was Fouere back then in Macedonia. He came from Skopje, spoke, he said the EU will assist in the repairs of the school, replace the windows, the flooring here and there…
FJ: All right. As a professor, did you feel safe to hold lessons in that period? Was it safe, or did the students show any unusual behavior?
XHZ: We were completely safe, without any problems. As we are on our land here, we are in our country.
FJ: Yes, of course. But, since the conflict happened, the war, was there any fear maybe… or…?
XHZ: The conflict did not happen against the Macedonian people, it happened against the anti-Albanian armed forces, the Slavo-Macedonian army, the Slavo-Macedonian police and the paramilitary units…
FJ: Yes, you emphasized it earlier. But how did the students experience it? How did it seem to you?
XHZ: Students, students for the first time there were… they are students in adolescence. It was the first time they had seen war. Of course war is not a good thing. There has been destruction of material goods, burning of houses, demolition of houses. There were deaths, there were murders, there were executions, do you understand? And the news was spreading, it had spread through the world media, CNN, Sky News, BBC, on all continents, do you understand?
FJ: Well, did that affect the educational process?
XHZ: Well, this did not affect the educational process at all, since in September, from the time it stopped in May, April until September, it was a period that enabled the calming of the situation, stabilization.
We did not have any problems with the Macedonian professors. We communicated, but what communication? Hello, and that was it. That isn`t communication! Even today we communicate as much, do you understand?
FJ: What is different today compared to 2001?
XHZ: Nothing is different. This is inexplicable.
FJ: Did the Albanians gain anything?
XHZ: Ah, did we gain anything?
FJ: Concretely, did Albanians gain anything from 2001?
XHZ: I do not think they have gained much. They gained the Ohrid Agreement. It influenced the change of the Constitution of Macedonia, which was a unitary, mono-ethnic or single-ethnic, centralist constitution. But Albanians have not gained the status of state-building people. Still some dark, romantic, retrograde and anachronistic Slavo-Macedonian forces, especially from VMRO-DPMNE, consider or tend to consider them as a minority.
There is no Macedonia without Albanians! Everyone should know this. Even Washington, our lifelong ally, and Brussels. There is no Macedonia without Albanians.
FJ: What is different in the education system? What has been gained in this regard?
XH: In the education system we have the University of Tetovo, let`t be clear. I do not want to talk about the qualities of the University. This is a new university, we hope it will consolidate, it will recover, it will strengthen. It needs to be strengthened, it needs to be consolidated, it needs to offer quality…
FJ: What is your personal experience in the school where you work, what is it, is there a difference, is there…?
XHZ: Listen now. There is a theory, the old staff is said to be of better quality than the new staff. This is what they say, this is widespread. Someone even said “if you do not have 3 days of communist school, do not say that you are educated”. Is this theory correct, I do not know, but they want to say that under communism there was order, discipline, rules and criteria. There is no criteria nowadays. Yes, Kim Mehmeti says well, “we have enough master’s degrees and doctorate`s, now let’s start reading”. But you know how they say “if I knew how easy college is, I would have finished high school”.
FJ: Well how do we move forward then?
XHZ: We will not move forward. You do not move forward this way . We will go backwards this way. This is why we do not move forward.
FJ: What do you propose, where do we go?
XHZ: I propose that the essence of society is school, education. We need selection, you know what I mean? This is a Gymnasium, vocational schools are here as well. Here is the problem. In the Gymnasium you have to be enrolled with an entry exam. Whoever makes the entry exam, not here in Tetovo, in Skopje! Organized, an exam organized by the State Examination Center. With points, whoever makes it, will enroll into the Gymnasium. The End..
Have you ever seen a Gymnasium, where the student has 8 F`s? Either he does not know how to read, or he does not know how to write? The people gain their freedom when they learn to write in their mother tongue! We do not know this!
FJ: So do we live in peace?
XHZ: What peace? We live in a fictitional peace. What peace? Now… now let me get back to the university, the selection, the entry exam. I, sir or madam, waited in line for 5 hours in Belgrade to submit the registration documents. Today they come to our schools begging us, “come to our school, come to our university”. They come from UT, they come from SEEU, from Skopje, Tirana, Prishtina and so on, private universities, “come and register with us”. What is that? As a student, I waited for 4 hours to submit them, do you understand? The university did nit come to the schools to beg the students to “come and register”. Why? Let`s pass the pupils as we have no students, do you understand? To pass the students, as we have no students, otherwise the department will close and I will be out of work. What is that?
But we can not trivialize the academic title. A doctor of science does not speak any foreign language, do you understand? The doctor of science must speak at least two foreign languages, English, German, English, French, do you know what I mean? He says he`s a historian, yet he has never seen what an archive looks like. The archives of Vienna, Rome, the Vatican, London, Berlin, Istanbul? Cairo, not to mention Thessaloniki, Athens, Belgrade and Moscow. He has never seen an archive with his own eyes. But not an archive, he`s never seen a library.
Thus people do not gain freedom this way! Do you understand? They can gain fictionalfreedom… do you understand…? What doctorate is that? In a serious university it is not a seminar paper, it is not treated as a seminar paper. He says “I have a doctorate”. What doctorate? I have translated many doctorates and master’s degrees, from Serbian and Croatian into Albanian.
Some girl told my son “do it for me” she said “Kafka, I will give you 100 euros”. I told my son, “You can do whatever you want, I will not interfere in this matter.” He prepared Kafka for her, do you understand, she gave him 100 euros, she went and got a master’s degree.
Where does this lead? This is trivialization, banalizing and ruining of education. That is why I say we need criteria, we need selection, we need an entry exam… And depoliticization, departmentalization/depolitization of education. It won`t be an armageddon if he/she doesn`t enroll in medicine, the world is not only medicine, do you understand?
What is needed is vocational education! Vocational education is neglected here. Germany is looking for qualified staff in the field of vocational education.
FJ: True. I have one more question. What is peace for you?
XHZ: Peace is the harmony between two peoples. Peace in Macedonia means harmony between the two peoples, Albanians and Slavo-Macedonians. [INAUDIBLE] peace is democracy. True one-minded democracy, that is peace. Peace is the formation of the rule of law, the rule of justice. The problem is not, it does not mean that it is only between the two ethnicities. It could be the problem within the same ethnicity. It could be the problem within the Albanians themselves. There are problems in Albania, there are no Serbs and Slavo-Macedonians or Greeks there. Albanians themselves have disagreements among themselves. The same is in Kosovo.
Peace is the harmony between two peoples! Peace is to develop genuine democracy, to build the rule of law, to build a just state. Peace is to fight corruption, peace is to fight nepotism, peace is to prevent the enrichment of oligarchs…
FJ: You can hold it in your hand for a while because we will finish. What is he holding in his hands? Can we please clarify this?
XHZ: … peace is to prevent enrichment… to prevent corruption, nepotism and the overnight enrichment of the political class or the samurais . This is peace, do you understand? Peace is to strengthen the civil society! This is peace. To look ahead and not backwards. Do not deal with the past, the history and historicism, as tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of young people not only Albanians – but also Slavo-Macedonians – have immigrated and day by day they move to the West and across the ocean, do you understand? This is peace. How to keep young people here, to give them perspective here, this is peace.
Peace is not the demagoguery of political parties. Peace is to depoliticize not only the society and institutions, but our soul and our brain. Not I will vote for this particular party regardless of the political program it has, just to employ my son.
FJ: I have no more questions for you. Do you have something for the end that you want to share with us about something I did not ask you…
XHZ: Thank you for the interview you had with me, for taking me into consideration.
FJ: Thank you for sharing your time and experience with us…
XHZ: To the two nations Albanians and Slavo-Macedonians… I would like these two nations to live in peace, in harmony, to look forward, do you understand, for their own good. I would suggest to young people not to immigrate. I would suggest young people to start a family, get married, have children. The stone is heavy on its own soil. I would have suggested to young people not to be blind materialists. It is not all about the material things but also about the spirit.
And I would have suggested to the young people to continue the process of Euro-Atlantic integration as the interest, not only of the Albanians but especially of the Albanians, and of the whole region, is the Euro-Atlantic perspective. That’s all I have.
FJ: Thank you very much.
XHZ: Thank you too.